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wiki
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advice please :)
« on: April 26, 2011, 10:16:09 PM »

Ok. I am a wee bit reluctant to post as I know I am way overstocked  and I dont want you to think i am a horrible person (saving up for a bigger tank though... happy bananas!). Bur one of my fish is getting blood in the end of his tail... he (she?) has always had a vein there but last night it sort of ruptured and it is bleeding. I am assuming it is because of too-high ammonia and nitrites...

I bought a test kit yesterday and found my ammonia was 4ppm, nitrites 5ppm and nitrates 0ppm. This worried me as my tank has been running for a month and surely I should have some Nitrates by now?

So i did a 50% water change to lower the poison a bit and treated with Prime (twice the standard amount for tap water as it said it could be used in larger amounts for emergency detoxification of Nitrites.

When I replaced the water, the tank started leaking so the pet store gave me a brand new one - no questions asked (good on them Smiley ) so by the time i moved all the water i could and the fish and topped up the new tank it is probabaly on 70% new water. I got some stresszyme at this time and added it too.

This morning the ammonia is 2ppm, nitrites 5ppm and nitrates 5ppm (yay something is working!) And i did another water change of 20%.

The fish seem happy enough, they are swimming around and their fins are perky and not clamped at all. They are swimming slowly but they are active and happy to see me!

Now a few questions...

I notice in some posts, it is reccomended to add Prime every day when ammonia and nitrites are high... how much should I add daily? Is it possible to hurt my wee friends if I add too much?

Can i add stresszyme daily to boost the cycling? It says only to use every 7 days... again, will it hurt the fish to add too much?
 
I have had 1tsp per gallon aquarium salt in the water since day one as I couldnt afford a test kit so i wanted to makes sure the nitrite stage wouldnt hurt my fishies... would the salt be stopping the tank cycling?

The water is slightly brown and murky it has improved dramatically since the big water change and the stresszyme... should i worry about it being a bit murky... it seems to get worse a couple of hours after a water change...

I'll fil in the form of how the tank is now (as I said, I am getting a bigger tank so please dont be too mad at me... it was an emergency when i got this tank and was all I could afford just then!) I am looking forward to getting a bigger one... Am looking at about 50gal for the new one at the moment.

1. How big is your tank:  Gal / litres 48L (12 gallons)

2. For how long has the tank been set up: 4 weeks

3. How many fish:3

4. What kinf of fish: 2x common -I think (2 inches excluding tail) 1x 3 inch comet i think

5. What are the water parameters:    Ammonia.........2ppm
                                                            Nitrite..............5ppm
                                                            Nitrate.............5ppm
                                                            pH.7.5.........................
                                                            Temp...............comfortable (for me) room temperature degrees Celsius / Fahrenheit

6. How often do you perform water changes: 20% weekly but am going to increase to 20% daily until tank is cycled

7. How big are your waterchanges:      .see above....................%

8. What kind of waterconditioner are you using: was aquaone but changed to Prime last night

9. Do you add beneficial bacteria: first time last night - stresszyme

10. Symptoms your fish is showing: bleeding tail - slightly ragged where it is bleeding

11. Since when does your fish show these symptoms:     last night but had a vein in the tail before

12. How is the normal behaviour of your fish: perky but cruisy

13. How do the other fish behave: the same

14. Post pics of the sick fish: i'll try and take one

15. Do you have a filter on your tank, what kind, how big (gallons per hour) yes. 300L per hour i think

16. Do you provide extra aeration with an air pump and air stone/diffuser of some kind. one of those dissolvable air stones - made of baking soda or something... lasts about a week.


Thank you!
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Hanna
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2011, 01:29:00 AM »

Ammonia stil too high, it is very toxic and poisonous to fish, burns the gills and the fish will suffocate.
Cycling a tank with fish you must keep your ammonia under 0.25 ppm.
Add beneficial bacteria every day. Stability from Seachem recommended.
Test your parameters every day and perform your 50% w/c's every day until Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm and Nitrate no more than 15-20ppm.
Get yourself a proper airstone with a pump. More oxygen will keep the Ammonia Toxicity at a lower level.
But remember, it does not replace the water changes, especially in your case where you are way overstocked ( you know it )
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wiki
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2011, 01:50:09 AM »

Thank you Hanna!
I know the ammonia is too high. I was shocked at how high it actually is considering the fish have been lively and healthy looking for so long... I cant believe they didnt get sick earlier... I know better now... I hope it hasn't harmed them too much without it showing Sad
I am assuming the stresszyme is similar to stability so i will use that every day and do 50% waterchanges Smiley
I didnt realize that more oxygen helps reduce toxicity... I will get an airstone and pump tomorrow. (and still do the waterchanges of course - my tank is next to a window so i just siphon the water straight out of the window... easy-peasy! lol)
Can I add prime everyday to help reduce the toxicity of the ammonis and nitrites while the tank is cycling? I just read a thread saying it can suffocate the fish if there is too much... does it break down in the water and not build up? so confused there!

Thank you again!
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wiki
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2011, 01:52:13 AM »

p.s. how on earth do you take a picture of a goldfish? They move so fast!!!
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wiki
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2011, 04:15:17 AM »

Ooh and an update... I'm still going to follow all the advice but the fish are sooo much perkier... I have never seen them this active and the sore on Fluffies tail is already healing!!! Can the stresszyme and prime and waterchange be working this quickly or is it my imagination? I am starting to think that I have never actually seen my fish healthy (coming from manky pondwater and a 9 hour trip in plastic bags into an uncycled small tank with a n00b in charge...).   I just thought that swimming slowly was what they did! I am looking forward to a huge tank so they can grow big and beautiful (though they are pretty already).

Btw.. they are called Fluffy (the comet) Klaus and Sumner (after the Suburb they were caught in) - its Sumner not Summer LOL

And on another note, I think the smaller ones are commons but their tails seem to be getting longer maybe they are comets?... do comets have (relatively) small tails when they are babies and the tail gets longer as they are older or do they always have the long tail? the fish are identical except for the relative tail length...

I fed them half a squished pea tonight  rather than flakes to help keep the ammonia down (cos less protein is better at this point right?) and they loved it Smiley I will try to get some zucchini and lettuce for them at some point oot Smiley
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Summer Time
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2011, 06:21:18 AM »

Yes, your fish are looking better because of the changes you have made to help them. A comet's tail is about the same length as its body.
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Hanna
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2011, 07:29:53 AM »

Please use prime according to bottle instructions, and you also must add it with every single waterchange, same with BB's
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Summer Time
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2011, 08:24:09 AM »

Prime is a great product, and it only stays active for a short time.
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Goldiegirl
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2011, 12:52:59 PM »

Having recently switched over from Amquel+ to Prime, I was also wondering about how it works. On the bottle it says it removes Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, chlorine and chloromines, but does it merely convert it into a form the filter removes or does it take it all out? Also, how long does it last? Amquel+ says you can re-dose after 24 hours, which I took that to mean it "wears off." Prime doesn't give many specifics, though I am now finding I like Prime better due to the smaller doses and less unpleasant smell.

Here's a tip: for a tank with high nitrites, you can add a dosage of aquarium salt. The salt will absorb the nitrites around the gills and generally alleviate the effects.
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Summer Time
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2011, 03:24:40 PM »

I have recently researched Prime, and from what I remember it converts the ammonia to something non toxic so the bb can still consume it and you will still be able to measure it. I also remember reading that it works instantly, so my understanding is that it would convert any existing ammonia but doesn't wait around to convert any newly created ammonia, so you need to replenish it. When cycling my tanks (or when I had ammonia from using meds), I added it every day or two.

I haven't been using it as my regular conditioner because I want my ammonia to convert naturally.  I use it only if I have ammonia readings, like during cycling.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 03:28:18 PM by Summer Time » Logged
wiki
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2011, 09:18:28 PM »

Ok just before todays water change, my ammonia has gone down to 1ppm - still not great but heading in the right direction! nitrites are still at 5ppm (I think... the purple in the test tube is much more vivid than the colours on the chart...) and nitrates are up to between 10-20ppm...

Did 50% change and added stresszyme and prime to detoxify the tap water... Another question about Prime (sorry Sad ) The instructions on the bottle say when adding prime to treat tap water, to treat the aquarium... does this mean that I put in enough Prime for the whole volume of the aquarium or just for the new water and add the Prime straight to the tank?


Aquarium is treated with 1tsp rocksalt per gallon and I bought a pump and airstone (It is going to be more economical in the long run anyway... why didn't I do it in the first place?)

Is there anything I have forgotten until I get my bigger tank?

I fed them a squished pea last night  Cheesy ... They are soooo cute! I hope they aren't too annoyed with me moving their gravel around... they spend so much time arranging it how they want it lol!

And thank you guys for all your help and a very informative forum! I will try to post some pics of my fishies at some point too!


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Goldiegirl
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2011, 04:26:53 PM »

Interesting, thanks Summer Time!

On the bottle of Prime it says you can add up to 5x more of the dosage safely, especially now that you've got that airstone. I would reccomend that to get your ammonia to 0. Also...in my opinion, I think it would be best to treat the new water AND the tank, for as Summer Time says it wears off after a day or so.

Sounds like the coast is almost clear. Keep up the regular water changes and the Prime, and soon you should be out of the woods.  Smiley
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Summer Time
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2011, 10:24:25 PM »

You're welcome  Smiley  It is an interesting product.

I'm glad your readings are going down Wiki, your fish must be happy  Wink

I found some of the links regarding details of Prime.  It becomes inactive after 24 hours, so ok to add more at that time if needed.  When I treated my tank, I dosed for the entire volume of water, or just under.

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wiki
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2011, 11:08:59 PM »

yup they are still going down too.... NH4 0.5ppm NO2 still at 5ppm and NO3 5ppm... I expect the NO2 will go down soon? The fish like their bubbles Smiley they are playing in them!
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Summer Time
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2011, 10:12:23 PM »

Well it could take a while for it to go down, but don't worry.  Wink   

Your fish are ok as long as you use the Prime and do frequent water changes during this time period.  Just don't give up, this is when they need you most   Grin
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Nossie
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2011, 10:52:59 AM »

I'm so glad to read that there's some progress! Smiley And I'd just like to point out yet again, that yes, something as simple as water changes are helping your fish heal so fast Wink As long as you'll keep an eye on the water quality etc, it won't be that big a problem that it's temporarily overstocked, since you're saving up for a bigger tank already Smiley Great to have someone with some ambition on here!

About the water conditioner, I always just add to each bucket, or as much water as I change. However, if I use the bio-filter booster I use to add for the whole tank volume, mine is made by Easylife and is called "Fluid bio filter media". I add it when I see some small tears in the fins or when I'm quarantining/cycling a tank, since it helps the fish heal as well. So frankly, it depends, but if it's a conditioner that "just" neutralizes chlorine etc, I'd dose just for the water I add to the tank.

Keep us updated on how the cycling goes and good luck!! Cheesy
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wiki
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2011, 01:56:25 AM »

I am down to 0.25ppm ammonia, 5ppm Nitrite and still hovering around 5ppm Nitrate... It is worrying me a little bit that the NO2 and NO3 readings arent changing... Is the ammonia only going down because of water changes? Are my wee bacterias actually colonising and converting it?

I was feeding my fish as much food as they could eat in 2 mins twice a day (flakes and peas/zucchinis/carrots) and the water was really cloudy... I have cut down to as much as they can eat in a minute... It still seems like ALOT (a LARGE pinch per fish...)! I read that a goldfish should only eat about the size of their eye in one meal (of course they will eat more if there is more there!)... My fish will guzzle down alot more than this in a very short amount if time... I hope I am not starving them... I know they can go a long time with no food but still... Or could they just be very fast eaters... It seems like they would polish off a whole tub of flakes in a minute if I fed it to them!

Could i still be feeding them too much and making ammonia build up more? This fish-owner thing is really tricky! (but fun Smiley )
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Nossie
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2011, 04:58:20 AM »

You're feeding them far too much! That's why the ammonia/nitrites aren't going down Smiley Feed them at most once a day, even better to feed them just every second-third day or so. You need to think more about the cycling now than feeding the fish!!
Otherwise it sounds like a really good feeding schedule, but not until the tank is cycled and the ammonia is gone.
So continue testing the water, changing it, and rather don't feed the fish until the ammonia is completely gone from the readings Smiley
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wiki
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2011, 04:11:53 PM »

Awesome! Thank you!
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wiki
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2011, 01:39:21 AM »

Ok so a couple of updates...
First, I have got my Ammonia down to zero... and it is staying at zero... woooohooooo! My nitrites are still off the scale and nitrates are from 40-80ppm so I  am keeping up the 50% waterchanges... AND Salt, AND Prime AND Stresszyme lol

Second, My new tank arrives on tuesday... another woooohooooo! It is 800mm square and 400mm tall... I have nowhere to put it so I am going to plonk it in the middle of the living room and it will probabaly be used as a coffee table (It will have a nice easy to remove lid for water changes etc... and I will put rubber and wood between the lid and sides to stop any nasty vibrations etc... disturbing the fish...) I am VERY EXCITED!!! The volume comes out at around 60 gallons so I may get a couple more fish in there... The teeny tank I have now came with a voucher for 3 free goldfish so I might just make the most of the voucher...

Ok, now this is where I ask for help again... Fluffy (the comet) still has very ragged fins and all three are quite lethargic... I would like to get them into their new tank as quickly as possible... Of course, fishless cycling would be the best BUT... My fish arent happy where they are, I dont want them to be in more pain than possible... Would it be better to get them in the bigger tank straight away with as much of the biomedia/water/gravel etc from the old tank (which still hasn't fully cycled anyway...) or to leave them where they are and do a fishlesss cycle...

I was thinking, I could transfer everything from the old tank into the new and every day, add as much water again so I fill it up over a couple of weeks (I am assuming this would be like doing a 50% water change every day...) I am just about to buy a 1200L/h canister filter for it (made by Aqua One - I dont think you get that brand in the US) and i think the hoses can be moved to deal with the shallow water?

Thank you in advance for your help! I have a week to decide what to do as I need to wait 7 days for the sealant on the new tank to cure fully  (I found a guy who makes them cheap!!!)
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Nossie
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2011, 12:14:05 PM »

Just put them all in the new tank Smiley If you want to, you could keep the old filter going in the tank while cycling the second one! More filtration is always good Smiley The water from the "old" tank isn't going to do anything so... just pour in fresh water and keep up with testing, water changes and beneficial bacteria. No need to make things more complicated than they need be Smiley

Be careful about the salt you're adding though, it will harm your fish if they need to spend a long time in it, they're freshwater fish after all!

One thing though, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to keep the tank directly on the floor for various reasons. For instance, you can't see them that well there and they can't see you Wink
A tank should also be on a place where it won't be disturbed, you know, the fish will be bothered if there are constant vibrations ON it as well as around it. If I were you, I'd invest in a tank stand! They're made for most common dimensions in tanks and they're safer than anything else Smiley
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wiki
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2011, 06:08:57 PM »

Thank you Smiley I think i will build a small stand for it... And put some polystyrene between the tank and the stand (I believe this both stops imperfections in the stand from stressing the glass and will help prevent vibrations from the floor).

Ok, so the water doesnt actually have the benificial bacteria in it? Its just on the gravel and filter media? That is good to know... Is it still worth moving some gravel across to the new tank? I want to change the gravel colour as it is going to be their home for a long time and it has to look good to me... If I put some of the old gravel in mesh bags and put that in the tank, will it help it  cycle?

Thank you for your help, you guys ROCK!!!
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Summer Time
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2011, 10:47:08 PM »

I moved my rocks and decorations and a few gals of tank water (don't know if that made a difference), and it cycled in a few days with no fish. I also added bb and fish food the first week.
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Nossie
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2011, 12:10:41 PM »

I added all the "old" gravel (since I was going to use the same kind anyway!) and some of the dirtier tank water, the fish didn't move in until after 2-3 days when the temperature was sure to be stabilized Smiley (And when we'd move into the new apartment)
So, I picked four buckets of tank water or so, for the sake of waste, so that the cycle could start, you know, there was a bit of sludge and some fish poo that had been stuck between the rocks last time I changed the water Wink
If you'd like, that would be a good way to kick-start the cycling process! The bacteria need waste as nutrition to multiply!

But to keep water for the bacteria isn't really any use, since they, as you said, live only in the filter media and the gravel. That's why it's a good idea to have a really big filter for goldfish, because you can put more bio filter media inside it.

It's always a good idea to have a soft material between the tank and whatever is under it, especially with bigger tanks. It will absorb the possible unevenness in the stand under it, just like you said. I cut a fitting piece of an old foam-like thing you have under sleeping bags xD (hard to explain)

Is there a way to mix the old gravel with another color, or is it far from what you want? Smiley
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wiki
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2011, 10:05:32 PM »

The gravel is way far from what I want... I am going for royal blue gravel in the new tank - it will show off the colour of the fish beautifully I think... my old gravel is a tacky black and white job... came with the tank... looks awful... I have some plastic plants in there at the moment. I will move them across too unil the water gets sorted. And i could put some of the old gravel in the canister filter as well I believe... give it a kick start Smiley

I know what you mean about the foam sleeping things... we have a few of them lying around. They are getting shorter and shorter as I cut them down for different projects... Useful stuff!

I am probabaly going to put in just enough gravel to cover the bottom of the tank. I think this will be a good compromise between the gravel for the bb (and goldfish entertianment) and a bare bottomed tank for ease of cleaning. As the tank will be a centerpiece for the living room, I would like it to be clean and pretty!

I hope it looks nice, The tank itself is grey tinted glass (because it is all I can afford and I think it is more important to get these fish into more water ASAP) but I am assured it is very see-through with lighting from the top... It will stop the cats getting too frightened I think (they are soooo petrified of these fish it isnt even funny anymore- they have never seen fish before... ever!) and I have heard it is less stressfull for the fish if the light is mainly from above. The lid itself will be clear glass....

I think I will make a new thread on the progress of it... we will have about 5 days to kill while the sealant cures so I need a stand AND a lid and decorations Smiley Will have to drill some holes in the floor for power and filter-plumbing too... (I LOVE owning my own house Smiley )
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fantailer
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2011, 06:52:26 AM »

I cant wait till I own my next house. But its summer NO SCHOOL!!!!!!!!
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Nossie
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2011, 05:16:00 AM »

wiki: It's really easy to keep the tank clean if you have one of those siphon things! You know, those that suck up the gravel, clean out the small dirt particles and drops it back down. If you have only a thin, thin layer of gravel, the plants won't thrive nor stay on the bottom for too long. The latter is concerning both plastic and live plants, goldfish are quite fierce diggers as you know Wink
I have a nice 2-3 inch layer, and that's perfectly enough to keep the plants down, and like I said, it's easy to keep it clean if you've got a siphon on the end of the hose. I mean, you'll need to clean the gravel anyway, and it will look better having more of it.
If you think about a bare bottom tank, it doesn't look that lovely when there's lots of fish poo and sludge collecting on the bottom D:
Not to mention that less gravel isn't providing too much ground for the beneficial bacteria to breed.


Everything else sounds fine! Smiley Aquarium gravel is a pretty common filter media when kept in a little bag. You can make them out of old nylon stockings if you have any c: Cheap and good method to get things started.
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wiki
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2011, 05:13:38 PM »

Awesome! I will do a decent layer of gravel then... I have got a siphon thing too Smiley  I dont really want a bare bottomed tank... I am just waiting for the tank to arrive now... then  I can start building the stand!

I would really like some live plants but they sound REALLY complicated to maintain... I dont think I would have enough light for them...
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Nossie
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Re: advice please :)
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2011, 05:17:22 AM »

All I do for my live plants:
1. Plant them.
2. Leave them.
3. Pick up some rotten leaves once in a while.
4. Collect floating leaf fragments.

That's how hard they are to maintain. Any tank light will most usually promote healthy plant growth anyway, so that's nothing to worry about in the first place Smiley Plants you keep with goldfish can't be sensitive in the first place, they'd get eaten. I have Java Ferns and Anubias only Wink (Three types/sizes of Anubias, they bloom regularly)
Onion plants should be fine too! I'd love a few, but they still haven't gotten any to the pet shops I go to Smiley
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