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Author Topic: Ailing fish  (Read 1229 times)
BigBob
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Ailing fish
« on: July 03, 2011, 02:50:03 AM »

I'm new to this and to goldfish. I constructed a pond (approx 450 litres) at Christmas and currently have 14 small goldfish (comets and fantails). Water readings are perfect but 2 of my friends have developed pale markings on various parts of their bodies. I have isolated them and am treating them for fungal infections without success. Have added salt today according to instructions. One fish's dorsal fin appears to be rotting but I have not seen red streaks, etc. Can someone help, please?
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Nossie
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2011, 05:46:33 AM »

"Rotting"? You mean it's torn? Where do you keep the separated fish? How big is the container?
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BigBob
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2011, 08:29:45 AM »

They are in a 10 litre container with aeration and a small filter, and a plant. 'Rotting' seems to be the best word for it. They are in a greenhouse tonight for some extra warmth. (Not hot.) Any suggestions?
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2011, 07:52:32 PM »

Sounds like fin rot. The salt should cure that within a few days; you could also try a bit of baking soda, that helps for fin rot...1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water. 

10 litres is much to small for fish to recover in.  Undecided I know it's a quarentine tank, but such a small area for two fish is stressful and to see improvement maybe you could give them a larger space? I know it would help them to get better fast.
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BigBob
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2011, 01:34:16 AM »

Ok. I've moved them into a spacious 40 litre container  Smiley and added some baking soda. How am I doing?Huh I do appreciate the advice. Cheers.
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Ron H
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2011, 05:22:14 AM »

Bob are you sure it is rotting??? is it fluffy, spongy, or flaking? the more info you give the better the advice can be Wink ... maybe you can get a pic...
also I have two common goldfish (Spot and Norm) that changed colour... Spot is named because he had spots and Norm was named because he was, well, a normal "gold" goldfish... after being put into a sunnier position in an outdoor pond, Spot turned albino (lost all the spots) and Norm developed spots, it seemed to have been nothing more than a pigment change for some reason, maybe it was UV exposure, they have been like this now for over 3 years now Smiley > Cheers hope it all works out. > Ron
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BigBob
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2011, 06:01:37 AM »

Ron, it looks like it's rotting away. At first, several weeks ago, s/he had pale 'blodges' (the best word I can think of!) on his flanks but appeared to be untroubled. Then, 4 or 5 days ago, these markings multiplied rapidly - especially along the line where his dorsal fin meets the back, and on his tail, but also a few spots elsewhere, AND he behaved strangely - some flashing, etc. A 2nd fish seemed to be catching this as well, and that's when I moved them into the container. The one with rotting fins, seems to have white, raised growths along the ridge of his dorsal, which appears to be being 'eaten away'!! I would describe the spots (about 3-4ml diam.) as spongy but I haven't felt them.

I will try to get a pic tomorrow, and I am not convinced that the treatment has had an effect after nearly 4 days. My pond does not get a lot of direct sunlight, especially now with the sun so far in the north, and I've wondered if that is the issue. Some of my plants lose their leaves very quickly and whither to nothing. I don't think the fish are eating the leaves. Does this help?
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Ron H
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2011, 06:42:00 AM »

Oh that does not sound good Shocked I think less direct sun is probably better for our summers in Aus, I recently had a prob with F.B's fantail that had been getting too much sun over summer (I noticed she would sit under the waterlilly pads but her tail would stick out in the sun), she got skin cancer lesions on her tail ends that we had removed.. I know it doesnt sound like that but I thought you should be aware that it can happen...
also my partners father has a large pond for over 20 odd years, its in the shade under some laserlite, his goldfish are all over 9 inches long and healthy as, so I wouldn't think that shade would be your problem... a lot of my pond plants die back this time of year as well... I think Nossie, Goldiegirl or some of the other long time members are your best bet for advice on what it may be, hope you find out what it is and your fish get better soon.  Wink > Ron
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Ron H
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2011, 08:15:39 AM »

Also Bob forgot to add that ponds have become very cold environments in the last couple of months and get colder here in July, I have read that some bad bacteria can at times multiply and cause probs to fish in cold water... have you read about some of the fish diseases on this sites home page? maybe adding a water heater to the 40ltr container may help your fish temporarily while you are treating them...  If you dont have a heater I noticed the water in my small indoor Quar tank without a heater was around 17 - 19 degrees C which is way better than outside... F.B. has a heater in her 100 ltr pond/trough at the moment which is to help with her mending and recuperation... hope this helps a bit, cheers > Ron.
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BigBob
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2011, 08:45:29 AM »

Thanks Ron. I have read the diseases section but nothing there is obviously the problem. I have the holding tank in my greenhouse and will think about a heater. Are small heaters available, that you know of? I'll check in on him in the morning and get a photo, but I'm not sure that I can load pics, being a newbie. What is a Quar tank? And who is FB? The plant situation has been very frustrating. Would a heater help them as well?  Huh
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Nossie
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2011, 01:07:06 PM »

First of all, direct sunlight is bad for any pond, whenever you plan a pond you have to make sure it stays in the shade! Now, if you didn't do that setting yours up, you need to build some kind of protection on the pond. The water would get dangerously hot if the sun gets to shine on it every day, the fish would need more oxygen and the water wouldn't provide enough of that. The wastes would also be more toxic in hot water.

A "Quar" tank is a shortening of quarantine tank, something everybody should have Wink Are you regularly testing the water? Good water quality is the most important condition to be met if you want your fish to get healthy. So check the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate every day while the fish are sick. I'd guess they have fungus and a bacterial infection if the fins are being "eaten away", as you said. I'd treat with a fungus remedy, some are sold in salt form, I'm using one myself called "ectopur" by Sera, I don't know if it'll be available, but if you find it, I've used it many times successfully on my fish Smiley I'd also add an antibacterial remedy, but make sure that it's safe to combine these two before you do anything! Read the instructions in the package well before you use it.
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2011, 08:27:29 PM »

Good to hear that you gave them more space. Hmmmm. Whatever the trouble, the baking soda should help the illness. The pale "blodges" you described really does sounds definately like fungus!  Shocked Follow Nossie's advice about that.  Wink Now the spongy rotting places on the fins...that sounds pretty scary, to me it really sounds like fin rot, but honestly, pictures would really really help...preview your reply, then at the bottom of the page you will find a section that says 'attatchments.' You can then select a file from a folder on your computor.  Smiley

I'm so sorry to hear your goldfish are not doing well...it sounds like you are doing your best, and you care about your fish. We'll do our best to help you too. Sometimes obscure things can trouble our fishy friends, don't feel too frustrated if you can't find helpful articles for your problem. I know raising the temp helps with fish that have ich, although I'm not too sure about fungus. I'm currently treating 3 of my fish that have fungus as well, and one is already all better...non-iodized salt helps so much, and goldies can really tolerate high concentrations.  Cheesy

Good luck and hope this helps a tiny bit!  Smiley
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 08:29:37 PM by Goldiegirl » Logged
BigBob
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2011, 09:35:25 PM »

 Smiley Thanks everyone. What a great discovery this website has been for me and my fish mates. The good news is, one of my fish appears to be improving. He still has the 'growths' on his dorsal but I think they are reducing in size. I will go out shortly and try to get a good pic or two for you to study!  Roll Eyes The pond fish appear to be quite happy, although I'm still losing leaves from my plants. I will get a photo of one of them as well.

Quite chilly in Melbourne this morning.
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BigBob
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2011, 11:18:11 PM »

I'm having trouble loading these. Keep running out of 'session time'. Is there a secret to it? Anyway, the pics are not very good, I'm afraid, and I don't want to stress them out too much. On closer inspection just now, I can't see much improvement.  Cry Do you think a heater will make a difference?  Huh
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BigBob
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2011, 11:24:50 PM »

I don't know the name of this plant but it had leaves on it when I bought it 5 weeks ago. Most have fallen off and floated around the pond until I removed them. Ph and ammonia are fine and the only thing I can think of is lack of direct sunlight. Huh
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Ron H
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2011, 05:55:28 AM »

it is probably a lack of light and the cold that is affecting that plant Bob, a neighbour gave me some of that one this year from their pond, it was growing out of the top of the water by 4 inches in her pond, but that was in full sun and it has no fish in it... tried it in mine and it just would not grow with the same vigour and died off when the cold weather started... also your water lillys will die off a bit in winter but will regrow again in spring... nice set up, very tranquil, watch out for heron's (the dawn theif's) trying to steal your fish, if they can see it from above they will come...
also your camera is focussing on the top of the water, when doing a partial water change (so as not to unduly stress the fish) you may get a better focus pic with a lower water level, or you could try blocking the reflections on the top of the water with your body or maybe get some else to help block them, I sometimes use something black to do this (a coat, a black backdrop etc) as it does not show up so much in the final image... hope this helps > Ron
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BigBob
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2011, 06:17:09 AM »

I spend a lot of time there.  Cheesy Did you see the spots on my fish? And if you can suggest some plants that do well in indirect light, that would be great. Cheers, Rob
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BigBob
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2011, 06:23:42 AM »

Nossie & Goldiegirl,
Ron suggested I ask you about plants. My pond sits beneath a fence at the rear of the yard and faces East, but we are surrounded by trees and not much direct sunlight hits the surface this time of year. In Summer, it gets about 4 hours. Can you suggest some plants that would enjoy this environment? The pond is about 40cm deep. Appreciate your help.  Grin
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Ron H
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2011, 06:40:06 AM »

I have these plants, buggered if I know what it's name is but we call it the ribbon plant... it looks like thin green ribbons (about 5-10mm wide) growing upwards out of the one small base, it also sends out visible runners that grow roots that eventually break off and float around until they grow on elsewhere... grows really well in most light and seems hardy... the ryukins and goldies seem to like eating the roots and the leaves and it is easy to thin out if it starts to take over (and it does from time to time)... I have them in the same pots as my waterlillys and they seem to not affect them at all, will try to get a pic tomorrow to show you what it looks like... cheers > Ron
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Nossie
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2011, 06:44:44 AM »

Most pond plants do fine with a bit less light, you could try getting elodea, very hardy, very fast growing Smiley The fish might eat them though, but they're cheap, so you could just take a look! (However, you already seem to have something very similar over there)

I don't have too much experience with pond plants, they're a lot different than tanks and you usually can't keep aquarium plants outdoors and pond plants indoors, as you probably have figured. All I can say is check with some knowledgeable people in shops, or look for plants in books! You need to make sure that you're providing the right conditions for each plant to grow, and of course, that they're pond plants, not aquarium plants Wink

Those white patches are pretty strange, but they look like fungus, as far as I can see, so just keep treating until they go away! If fungus is left without being properly treated, it will encase the whole fish, inside and outside.
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BigBob
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2011, 06:59:35 AM »

Thanks Nossie. Will do.  Cool
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Ron H
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2011, 05:38:31 AM »

ooops you got me wrong there Bob, I think I meant Nossie and Goldiegirl would help you with the fish, sorry for the confusion all > Ron
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fantailer
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2011, 06:42:18 AM »

Nice pond BigBob! I like the statues.
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BigBob
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2011, 08:52:36 AM »

 Smiley Some improvement today. The 'growths' on the body seem to have gone. He still has them on his dorsal but less pronounced. I can't tell with his buddy because he is very shy and keeps moving out of sight! (Don't blame him, either.)

Question: should I be changing the water or part of it during this process?

Supplementary question, Mr Speaker: will the anti-F destroy bacteria in my filter?  Cry

Cheers, BigBob  Roll Eyes
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2011, 10:34:42 AM »

Tee-hee, don't ask me about the plants, Bob, just the fish.  Wink Ron and Nossie definately have more knowledge in that catagory; the only plants I have are cattails in my pond!  Cheesy Lovely setup by the way.  Smiley

Good to hear about the improvement; keep doing what you're doing. I would be doing partial water changes every other day, maybe 15-25%, as that helps fish to recover faster, as goldies will heal quicker in perfect water. Just replenish the ammount of medication/salt/baking soda that you have taken out along with the water. I'm not sure if anti-fungal medication will destroy the good bacteria because I do not typically use meds on my fish, but I would assume it might effect it to some degree. You may want to be using a filter media to help maintain the good bacteria, just a thought.

If you keep running out of "session time" while trying to load photos, it may help to either be logged in perminantly to the website (asking it to remember you) or using a smaller file size.  Wink
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Nossie
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2011, 02:14:48 PM »

Good to hear that things are going well! Cheesy
About the water changes, I wouldn't change anything unless the test kit tells me so. You need to test the water daily, pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate while you have a sick fish!! It's only better if you leave it alone for the treatment instead of having to take it out and put it back in all the time. So unless the nitrates go past 20-30ppm, it's just fine. If you'd have them higher than that, I'd change out half, so you wouldn't have to do it again too soon. And always before starting a treatment, you should change out a large amount of water! Close to 75% even.

Anti-fungal medication shouldn't affect the filter, but yet again, you won't know that unless you test the water Wink
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BigBob
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2011, 02:56:31 AM »

 Cheesy My fish mates are hanging in there and still improving, I think. Changed some water today and topped up the treatment. However, I add water conditioner to tap water, AND add salt (+ anti-fungus juice). Do these counteract each other? Also, the Ph in my holding tank is way high! Could that be the treatment? Will it harm the duo? I am trying to get it down but each day it's up again.  Huh

On another matter, would it be a good idea to have a florescent light over or near the holding tank? I need a light in the greenhouse but will it be of any benefit to my fish mates?

Cheers  Grin
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fantailer
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2011, 07:18:30 AM »

Yay!!!! Cheesy
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Ron H
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2011, 08:50:11 AM »

great news about the fish doing better Bob, lets hope they keep improving... attached is a pic of the pond plant that I told you about earlier up the list and like I said it grows pretty well reproduces by sending out runners and the fish like to eat it's leaves and roots as well... maybe someone will know what it's called, anyway its pretty easy to spot if you see it at the aquarium/fish shop... as for the fluro light that shouldn't hurt as long as you keep your fish on their normal day night routine and dont keep the light on at night, the fishes need to get some sleep too... also you never said how high your PH is??? fish can tolerate a wide range, I think from memory Nossie said 6.5-8.5, (someone correct me if I am wrong)... also I was told if its in that range dont stuff about with it too much as it will just add to the stress the fish are dealing with at the moment... Cheers > Ron
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grannie annie
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Re: Ailing fish
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2011, 10:41:20 AM »

I hate to say this but our fish have lived in bug juice tank when we had no power "no f.p.l." no water we have a well and is also water supp. to fish tank w/out having to add chem. just salt, but do need to add water every day it's outside & very hot in so.fl. fish have done well after a few water change's, and is still growing  one is almost 4 yrs. old, we hope to build a pond next spring:) and give them a nice home to grow old! just keep up with the care and get to know them you will see when something is wrong and can treat it right away.  enjoy you fish:)
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