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Author Topic: Update: I think he's going to die :(  (Read 1254 times)
lreiden
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Update: I think he's going to die :(
« on: June 28, 2011, 05:51:56 PM »

My black moor has been acting strange and sitting on the bottom of the tank, acting very lethargic.  He/she is a few weeks old..I just purchased a water testing kit which tests for ammonia and it came out fine, no ammonia was detected.  Any ideas why the fish would be doing this?  The one other fish I have with him is lively as can be, it seems, the black moor has never been quite as active as the other fish (fantail), I am just worried now that the black moor is going to die.  What should I do?  I really dont want him to die, I am meticulous about water changes 2-3 times a week, not over feeding, have a good filter and change the filter every 2 weeks...I do feel as if I am doing my best to keep them healthy but, am I missing something?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 08:05:58 AM by lreiden » Logged
nabi
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Re: black moor lethargic sitting on bottom Help!
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2011, 09:29:02 PM »

My guess is your tank is going through a mini cycle all the time (ammonia and nitrite spikes) , which can severely damage the fish's gills and internal organs.  Over time, a healthy fish will eventually not be able to cope with this and the body begins to shut down , and you see the fish sitting on the bottom of the tank. Also depending on how your tank is setup, replacing the filter with a new one every 2 weeks is not always the best idea if you are trying to cycle a new tank, because you will be throwing out most of the nitrifying bacteria that are keeping your goldfish alive. It's much better to rinse the dirty filter media in old aquarium water, then put it back in the filter. Once your water parameters are completely stable, then you look at replacing some of the filter media with new ones. 

If you're serious about keeping any type of fish ( either tropical or goldfish)  alive more than a few weeks or months, i strongly suggest you get you get something like the   AP Freshwater Master test kit . It will test for ammonia, nitrite, pH and nitrate (you need to know all of these values if you are setting up a new tank).  Once you know the water parameters, then you can adjust how frequently you  should do the partial water changes. Sometimes you have to do daily partial water changes  for the first few weeks during the cycling process , if the test results indicate the water parameters are not safe for the fish.
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lreiden
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Re: black moor lethargic sitting on bottom Help!
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2011, 07:54:10 AM »

thanks Nabi, I will definetely keep that in mind about the filter, I feel as if I am learning something new every day about this...as I mentioned in my intro post, I had a goldfish for 10 years when I was younger, I have no idea how he lived as long as he did but I definetely have an affinity to goldfish and want to give them a long happy life.  I am going to buy a new tank within the next week or two if I can find one used for a decent price.  I'm going to try to get at least a 29 gallon tank.  Of course, I will have to cycle this tank as well.. I guess I'm not exactly sure what the step by step process is for cycling a tank.  Can this be done without fish?  Are there any good online resources to help me do this?  If so, will someone send them my way? 

Thanks so much for everyone's help so far Smiley
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MB Gold
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Re: black moor lethargic sitting on bottom Help!
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2011, 01:29:37 PM »

Sorry to hear that you're having troubles Sad  Nabi is right about the cycling, I don't replace my filter media until it is really quite gross, then I only replace 1 bit at a time, not all at once, and I rinse it out weekly in tank water. I didn't know about cycling until after I had my first tank and six fish, and even then, I didn't understand it, so I just tested and water changed like mad (sometimes twice a day on a 70 gal tank  Roll Eyes ) until my readings were 0 ammonia and nitrite and 10-20 nitrate.  One question, do you have any hollow ornaments or thick gravel in your tank?  Sometimes things can get trapped in there that may not necessarily affect your test readings, but could make a weaker fish ill.
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lreiden
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Re: black moor lethargic sitting on bottom Help!
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2011, 01:43:45 PM »

Well, I have a plastic bridge decoration in there, it is kind of hollow I guess, and I have gravel, and two artificial plants I actually took the bridge out a day or two ago and cleaned it very well with a brush and hot water...I also vacuumed the gravel.  Once I did all of that though I think it may have been too much for the little moor.  I'm going to see how he is when I get home, he was swimming to the top a little bit this morning before I went to work.  I am hoping that once i get my 29 gallon tank (hopefully this weekend) I will cycle that and get them in there, hopefully he will be alive until then.  I really shouldnt have been so naive when I first got the tank, I should've cycled it first before putting them in there..I just hate losing fish.
I am going to try to take a little bit of water out each day, maybe about 15%, and replace it with new water (with the addition of the water conditioner-I think its aqueon).  I'm hoping this will help.  I"m afraid I cleaned the tank too much, i scrubbed the small amount of algae off and realized after the fact that I changed the filter too soon (shouldnt have done that) so I think I back-tracked with the cycling a bit. Sad
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MB Gold
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Re: black moor lethargic sitting on bottom Help!
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2011, 02:20:27 PM »

Don't be too hard on yourself, a lot of us start out with trouble due to bad advice from pet stores and lack of research; I thought goldies were supposed to be easy when I started  Tongue I spent my first couple of months with water issues and a lot of worries. When you get your new tank, move your current filter and media and a thin layer of gravel, so you can keep as much of your beneficial bacteria going as possible. You'll probably need a second filter, you'll want 300 gph, total.  It's good that you're starting to see more activity from your moor Smiley  The big cleaning may have stirred something up that weakened him, continued fresh water should help.  Doesn't sound like your decor is a problem, seems like your keeping it very clean.
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Nossie
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Re: black moor lethargic sitting on bottom Help!
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 03:09:08 PM »

You can cycle a tank without fish, which I would suggest that you do with the new tank. Set it up, add the gravel, plants, filter etc and add a little bit of fish food every day, or bury a piece of shrimp or fish in the gravel, wait until the food will start decomposing, and test the water. You don't need to change it that often while cycling it this way, but once a week should be good for the beneficial bacteria in the tank. You should also add beneficial bacteria to the tank while cycling, (and after too) that will speed up the process! ALWAYS CHANGE OUT AT LEAST HALF OF THE WATER!! When keeping goldfish 25% every second week or so isn't going to do absolutely anything.
When you see the ammonia going away, nitrites showing up and finally getting replaced by nitrates, you should add one fish at a time and keep an eye on the ammonia levels. The filter won't be used to having a constant source of ammonia (goldfish produce most of it by just breathing....), when that's all fine, nitrates showing up again and everything is as it should, you add the other two fish and again, monitor the pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate!! When everything shows zero (except the nitrates which will be building up gradually all the time) your tank will be cycled. Now all you need to do are weekly water changes of at least half the tank volume.

You should definitely NOT worry about there being anything wrong with your decorations, your gravel or anything else, cleaning away the algae or siphoning the gravel isn't going to change ANYTHING for the worse. It will just make your fish uncomfortable if you'll be worried and just pick on the tank once in a while pretending to change out 10% of the water. Not to mention how they'd feel if you'd keep your tank completely empty, no plants, no gravel, no decorations... there won't be anywhere for them to hide or look for food :/
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lreiden
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Re: black moor lethargic sitting on bottom Help!
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2011, 07:27:39 AM »

I did another water change last night, about 25% and I use Aqueon water conditioner every time I do that.  I think the black moor is definetely on his way out.  I dont know what else I can do for the poor little guy.  He was on his side a bit this morning, I thought he was dead and touched him with the net but he started swimming and breathing a bit.  Is there anything at this stage in the game that I can do for him?  I feel terrible, this is the 2nd goldfish I've killed trying to set this tank up.  The whole water quality and cycling thing is new to me and to be honest is kind of confusing...I'm thankful for this forum and for all of the support and advice you've been giving me!!  Hopefully I will get it right one of these days  Sad
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lreiden
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Re: Update: I think he's going to die :(
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2011, 08:07:04 AM »

Nossie, this "beneficial bacteria" is this something I can find at a petstore?  Do you think I should go buy it?
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Nossie
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Re: Update: I think he's going to die :(
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2011, 09:51:11 AM »

Yes it is, a couple of brands include: Stability, by Seachem, fluid bio filter media by Easylife, Stresszyme (Or stresscoat, I honestly can't remember which one that was the conditioner and which one was the bio filter bacteria, usually people use them together anyway Tongue) by API Smiley (I also used Nitrivec by Sera before, but it's usually not available outside of Europe, I think..) You should definitely go buy it. As I said, it will help your tank cycle since you'll be adding the bacteria that turn ammonia into less toxic compounds (Nitrite and later nitrate). The bottles usually just look like normal waterconditioners Smiley

But be sure NOT to buy anything called Ammolock, in case the people at the pet store will try to convince you. This will mess with the test results and the whole cycle itself will be all freaky :/

As a last resort, you could try to change out a bigger part of the water, maybe half or so and see if he'll get better? Still though, when a fish starts laying on the side, in my experience that's never a good sign :'/ Just get the beneficial bacteria ASAP, and don't get any more fish until the bigger tank is up and cycled.
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lreiden
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Re: Update: I think he's going to die :(
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2011, 10:03:58 AM »

Thanks for your help Nossie, I will go buy what you mentioned and do another big water change if he is still alive when I get home from work...Definetely no more fish until I get a bigger tank.  Makes me feel terrible for killing this little guy but hopefully with all of the help on here I can keep the one I have healthy!
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Nossie
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Re: Update: I think he's going to die :(
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2011, 10:30:46 AM »

I've personally been very unlucky with moors :/ I don't know what's wrong, they're not supposed to be any more sensitive than any other varieties. There's always that problem that they might not get enough food if they have to fight for it with fantails and more greedy fish with better eye sight too, which may lead to undernourishment which leads to defects and disease in young fish :/

So, how's it going with him, is he still alive?
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lreiden
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Re: Update: I think he's going to die :(
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2011, 09:55:58 AM »

Hey Nossie, no, I lost him the other day Sad 
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Nossie
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Re: Update: I think he's going to die :(
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 03:05:43 PM »

So sorry to hear that Sad Are the others alright at least?
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lreiden
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Re: Update: I think he's going to die :(
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2011, 03:32:56 PM »

yeah they're doing great, my tank got cloudy for a few days and I left it alone, I think it is finally done cycling...I'm still going to do 3 25% water changes a week and a bought aquarium salt and some beneficial bacteria whcih I added a bit of the other day...the tank looks fantastic.  I will snap a shot of it tonight, I had to go to Petsmart for dogfood and they got in a batch of red cap orandas...REALLY small, so, I got one...he and my other oranda are getting along much better than the moor was.  Hopefully I'll be able to get a new tank soon, until then, both fish seem happy and healthy *crosses fingers*
I'm so thankful for these forums I have learned so much! (although, still have lots left to learn) Smiley
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Nossie
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Re: Update: I think he's going to die :(
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2011, 02:17:58 AM »

So you've tested the water? The tank usually gets cloudy as a result from the cycling process. The cloudyness are the beneficial bacteria swimming around Smiley That's why it usually gets cloudy when you add them from a bottle as well. You could bring a sample of the water with you to the pet shop next time you visit and ask if they can test it for you! Just so you know, pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are the most important parameters!!

Can't wait to see pics! Smiley And good luck with the tanks, hope you'll find a bigger one soon Wink
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Nicole
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Re: Update: I think he's going to die :(
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2011, 03:42:21 PM »

I'm sorry for your loss.
For the future, NiteOut is another good brand for bacteria.
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lreiden
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Re: Update: I think he's going to die :(
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2011, 08:04:48 AM »

Thanks for the info Nicole Smiley
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