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Author Topic: Blackthorn's Battle  (Read 1279 times)
cheri_alexander
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Blackthorn's Battle
« on: November 15, 2011, 09:43:14 PM »

I am moving this topic from Goldie's article so I can get everyone's opinions.

1. How big is your tank:  Gal / litres 29gal

2. For how long has the tank been set up: Maybe 5 months...but I used filter media from an established tank so it has been stable just about the whole time.

3. How many fish: 3

4. What kind of fish: Black Moor 2" , 2 fantails around an inch (length of bodies only)

5. What are the water parameters:    Ammonia.........ppm  0
                                                            Nitrite..............ppm  0
                                                            Nitrate.............ppm  0
                                                            pH..........................   about 7.2
                                                            Temp...............degrees Celsius / Fahrenheit  71 degrees F

6. How often do you perform water changes: weekly

7. How big are your waterchanges:      .........60............%

8. What kind of waterconditioner are you using: Aqueon

9. Do you add beneficial bacteria:No

10. Symptoms your fish is showing: Rim of white along the edge of tail fin, slight fraying at edge of tail fin
             I also saw a slimy white are on his side, since dissapeared. It looks a little like he has a film all-over him but since he is matte it is hard to tell.
11. Since when does your fish show these symptoms:   
              Monday November 14th
12. How is the normal behaviour of your fish:
         active, eating, all normal
13. How do the other fish behave:
           they were removed as soon as I noticed symtoms but are acting well, none of the other fish show symptoms
14. Post pics of the sick fish:  impossible until tomorrow, my camera is not good enough

15. Do you have a filter on your tank, what kind, how big (gallons per hour)  gph is unknown, how would I find out without packaging? It is rated to 40 gallons.

16. Do you provide extra aeration with an air pump and air stone/diffuser of some kind.
      long airstone- plenty of aeration.




 I am quite sure Blackthorn is suffering from fin-rot although I saw a white slimy area which now has me worried about Body Slime Fungus. According to my books though B.S. Fungus starts on the body eventually spreading to the fins. This started on the tailfin.
 I have been treating with hydrogen peroxide every 12 hours (note- it is recommended this treatment be used every 24 hours). I also added salt to the tank. Has anyone tried a salt-bath? The affected area appeared to be spreading this afternoon but looks slighty improved now. I changed 60% of the water yesterday (regular matinence) should I change anymore today?
 Lastly; my regular vet is out of the country and is the only one in my state to see fish. I called "the best fish vet in the country" (according to a koi group) who is in New York, I set up a consultation over the phone for tomorrow. My question; has anyone ever taken a fish to the vet? Can they perscribe meds that I am unable to get at a store? It is a rather expensive consultation and I'd like to know if there is any point in going through with it...
 Also I already own Rid-Ich for fungal infections and an antibiotic made from melaluca concentrate. I am still watching and waiting before trying these meds.
  Thanks for any advice you can offer.



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Nossie
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2011, 02:30:14 AM »

I have a long and complicated formula for how to calculate the strength of a filter, but I don't think it's too important at this stage Smiley

Since you mentioned that there might be some film or milky skin on him, it would usually mean parasites, and the salt will deal with these. You did dose a .3% solution? Meaning 1 tablespoon per gallon of water.
Goldfish can survive a concentration of up to .9% salt, but that's only used for the especially resistant parasites.

I would just suggest that you keep doing what you're doing otherwise! And make sure you feed him nutritious food, lots of live foods and vegetables would be perfect Smiley
Best of luck, and keep us updated!
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2011, 08:50:49 AM »

I only did a 1/2 tsp per gallon as per instructions on the carton. I will add more. Thanks Nossie!
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2011, 10:54:07 AM »

The typical concentration of salt that I use is 3 tablespoons per 10 gallons. I find this measurement to be the most effective personally, but as Nossie said they can tolerate much more. Your fish won't get better overnight, but you will probably start see improvement after the first 4 or 5 days of treatment.
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2011, 11:11:52 AM »

Thanks guys. I will increase the salt after a water change today so I can effectively measure what I am putting in. He appears slighty worse this morning. I decided to hold off on treating him with peroxide until this evening. Still very active.
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Nossie
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2011, 12:42:45 PM »

I do hope he'll get better! He's still eating, right?
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2011, 03:50:33 PM »

Me too! I am quite worried about him. My friends don't help reminding me he was on sale and basically "who cares, get a new one" etc.
He is eating great. I don't have access to live food but I have been preparing veggies and frozen. His behavior gives me hope, when Michael Quincy contracted the same thing he lay down and stopped eating, moving, everything, and died within days.
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Nossie
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2011, 04:12:45 PM »

That's not particularly nice of them... I don't think your friends would be too happy if you'd say something similar should their cats or dogs get sick... Undecided

But so far so good. Maybe you should go on a little trip to the pet shop and buy a jar of freeze-dried tubifex? It's my favorite quarantine/sick fish food Smiley It's very nutritious, and they eat it with big appetite Smiley
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2011, 04:23:53 PM »

I will see if I can find tubifex, I am headed to the LFS now. I tried to get a few pictures with my phone, it does better than my camera, lol. I may be over-reacting to his normal velvet appearance, thinking I see white places on his body and eyes. His tail fin is slightly worse than this morning, whiter and more frayed.
Oh BTW the specks floating in the water are Daphnia, I thought he might hold still whilst eating.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 04:36:45 PM by cheri_alexander » Logged
cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2011, 04:34:51 PM »

Lets try that again...
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2011, 04:36:21 PM »

.
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2011, 04:37:48 PM »

.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 11:22:16 PM by cheri_alexander » Logged
cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2011, 06:16:42 PM »

I drove a little farther to a real aquarium store rather than the Petsmart. The employee who helped me seemed very knowledgeble. He explained fin-rot to me in more detail, saying that the white fuzzy edge was actually a secondary fungal infection, very common with fin-rot. He approved of the hydrogen peroxide treatment "in theory" , although he would not recommend it to a novice. He sold me Sulfamethazine/Sulfathiazole as well as a mild anti-fungal. He did advise not to treat yet. Only use the meds if he takes a turn for the worse. He said I can return the unused meds when Blackthorn gets better, lol, he was very kind.

edit- no freeze-dried tubifex so I got Hikari frozen  Wink
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 06:36:07 PM by cheri_alexander » Logged
Goldiegirl
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2011, 10:29:54 AM »

Glad to hear you got some more information regarding fin rot treatment! Swimming around, eating and acting pretty normal are all good signs. I agree with the employee...don't use the meds unless he takes a turn for the worse. Sometimes peroxide won't be able to fix severe cases of fin rot, so stronger meds are nessesary. The photos of him help us to understand what his situation is a little bit better... Fortunately for Blackthorn the rot hasn't progressed much further up his tail. Keep us posted on the little guy! Sure is a cutie!  Wink
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2011, 11:59:28 AM »

Thanks Goldie. I am pretty sure he is improving and certainly looks no worse. I am putting in about 5 Tbsn salt per 10gal and changing 2/3 of water every other day. The poor guy doesn't act sick and seems happy he doesn't gave to compete for food. After he is well I intend to only keep one other fish with him in the 29gal so hopefully the water quality will be more stable.
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2011, 09:26:52 PM »

The white part was for several days covering the edge of both sides of his tail it is now only on the side where the original injury was. Spoke to the vet today (finally) and she basically just echoed what everone else says: wait and see. Still acting just fine.
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laurencasualty
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2011, 12:06:45 AM »

He's looking better!!  Grin he's quite the cutie too Wink
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Nossie
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2011, 08:04:42 AM »

Looks like it's slowly going away, I'm so glad to see that Smiley
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2011, 07:56:28 PM »

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Thanks Goldie. I am pretty sure he is improving and certainly looks no worse. I am putting in about 5 Tbsn salt per 10gal and changing 2/3 of water every other day. The poor guy doesn't act sick and seems happy he doesn't gave to compete for food. After he is well I intend to only keep one other fish with him in the 29gal so hopefully the water quality will be more stable.

That's a whole lotta salt in there!  Shocked But hey, do what works to get him better - you gotta knock this thing out. He does seem to be improving by much!  Grin Is he still keeping up with the daily peroxide treatments?
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Skwishee
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2011, 05:46:23 AM »

Awww yay glad to hear his getting better Cheri ^_^
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2011, 11:53:24 AM »

Thanks guys. He looks so much better, now only the original area is affected and the rest of the tail looks normal.

Goldie- I know, but you said 3 per ten gal and Nossie said 10 per ten gal so I'm trying to listen to both of you! lol! I do the peroxide treatmeant every night, I'm convinced it's what saved him although it is taking longer than I expected.

I can't wait to have him in the 50 gallon with just a few moors. He eats so much better without the two fantails.
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2011, 01:52:32 PM »

Really am glad he pulled through!  Smiley

Lol Cheri about trying to listen to both Nossie and I  Cheesy Sometimes when you get different info you have to balance it, and it sounds like what you've done has worked great! It's sounds like it's marvelous what the peroxide has done for little Blackthorn. I really do swear by it.  Wink
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Ron H
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2011, 10:56:17 PM »

He is such a nice looking fish, glad to hear he is getting better, best wishes for him. cheers
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Nossie
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2011, 04:35:43 AM »

The 0.3% solution is mostly for treating parasites, which is why I suggested that since you mentioned some symptoms that could be related to a parasite infestation. Some parasites will need 0.6 or even an 0.9% solution!
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2011, 04:01:34 PM »

Well he is still not completely healed. This has been going on for 14 days! The white shrunk to a tiny corner of one half of the tail fin. He is still active and acting normal. I skipped the last two peroxide treatments incase I was doing more harm than good. Nothing I do seems to make a differnece...I plan to do another mass water change and add salt today. Should I continue with the peroxide treatment? Is it time to use the antibiotics? I have never heard of a fish living normally with fin-rot for two weeks...

edit- I also added beneficial bacteria- can't hurt right?
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Nossie
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2011, 05:29:56 AM »

Beneficial bacteria is always good Wink

Since the peroxide isn't working, maybe it is time to use some water treatments instead... like you thought. I'd still wait and see if Goldiegirl has any good points on what to do, I think she's had a lot more experience with treating fin rot than I did Wink

But are you sure that the water quality is good? There has to be something that keeps little Blackthorn from healing... but I assume you've changed water at least once since you started treatment, and I'm pretty sure that should be enough to keep it nice enough to heal in Huh
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2011, 12:52:57 PM »

I change 80-90% of the water twice a week! And all parameters are good. He actually looks much better this morning. If I wasn't looking for it the injured area would not be noticeable. Maybe the peroxide treatments for 12 days straight was stressing him out. I don't know what to do anymore...At least he is not getting worse.
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Skwishee
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2011, 03:19:49 PM »

Maybe just give him a break and see if that helps? You might have a point about the stress  Smiley

If it doesn't get better after that, you could always get a treatment to add to the water to help him out, I'm sure. Hope he gets better soon! You've done such a good job of looking after him, his a lucky fish Cheesy
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2011, 09:10:26 PM »

Thanks Skwishee! I've done I best for him. At this point I would be devestated if he got worse.
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Nossie
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Re: Blackthorn's Battle
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2011, 04:48:19 AM »

I think that's a good sign, just keep the water nice for him and wait a little and see if he can get better on his own Smiley
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