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Author Topic: Bloody streaks!!  (Read 1466 times)
Nossie
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Bloody streaks!!
« on: December 21, 2011, 09:21:45 AM »

These last few days, Berry has been sitting by the bottom for a while. I figured it might have been because it had been a few more days than usual between water changes, so I took out 50% (sorry, didn't test the water parameters then! Sad) For the first day after she was acting normally, and today, second day after the water change, she was again sitting around, looking depressed. I took a look at her just an hour or so ago, and noticed some bloody streaks in her pelvic fins and around the base of them, also a little bit around her mouth. Otherwise, she's acting pretty normal after being moved to the fresh tank, and all her fins are erect. She was also eating just normally the whole time.

Thinking it may be either ammonia or nitrite poisoning, I moved her to a 75 liter (roughly 20 gallons) quarantine tank with 50% old tank water and 50% freshwater along with the internal power filter (500 liters per hour)4 from the main tank.
I also added a full dose of beneficial bacteria and I'm planning to test the water tomorrow for everything and possibly change 50% and add some salt in case of parasites.
All of this according to a few of my books, I had to double check to make sure I got the diagnose right! D:

To make sure:
- I feed my goldfish a varied diet of vegetables, live foods and high quality pellets and flakes (pre-soaked in garlic oil or in tank water).
- I regularly change 50-60% of the water, along with a thorough gravel cleaning every week. I rinse the filter media of the internal filter once a week and the external filter once a month or every two months.
- The nitrate typically stay below 30ppm with this maintenance schedule.
- The main tank is 317 liters/83 gallons, slightly underfiltered (Usually 1500 liter/h of filtration) and with 9 fancy goldfish of various kinds and sizes.

I included pictures here, with and without pointers and descriptions. May be a little bit blurry, but still better than nothing Smiley

ANY ADVICE OR IDEAS ARE WELCOME!
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nabi
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2011, 10:35:18 AM »

Doing a 50 % water change (like you did)  is always a good idea  whenever you see a fish in an established tank getting sick. You should do a complete water test on the main tank , such as pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate when you get a chance, since abnormal water parameters can be the cause of the bloody streaks. 

Once you rule out the water conditions as the cause, the next most likely reason is some sort of internal bacterial infections, which is best treated with medicated fish food.  Something like Medi-Gold from (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.) or you could make your own medicated fish food using fish medication or human antibiotics.

Just remember to maintain ammonia and nitrite at zero in the quarantine tank.  If the redness and blood streaks continue to spread or the fish stops eating, i would probably try a broad spectrum antibiotic and treat the water in the quarantine tank as well.
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Nossie
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2011, 10:47:16 AM »

Okay, thanks a lot Smiley

I'll test the water in both tanks tomorrow then, since I already changed some water in both. Then we'll see how it goes.
I do have some medicated pellets, but they seem to be very hard to eat even if soak them in garlic oil before feeding, I could try crushing them a little, maybe it'll make it easier.
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2011, 11:44:03 AM »

Oh no! Poor Berry...I remember when one of my fish had that same exact problem. She had blood hemmorhaging around her mouth and at the base of her dorsal fin, tail fin, and pelvic fins. She also didn't seem like her usual self...I found some success with adding some salt (you know the drill so I won't go into detail  Wink ) and doing frequent water changes. Like you said, it's probably an ammonia or nitrite issue because you skipped a few days on a water change. That's the only thing you've done different. You could also try adding a product like Prime, Amquel, or StressZyme to make sure the water parameters stay safe. And if it isn't from water quality, well, listen to nabi.  Smiley
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Nossie
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2011, 06:04:55 PM »

Happy days... before the day ended, I noticed that she started pineconing, and her eyes may be sort of puffy Undecided
I don't want to lose another to that **** dropsy, so I added some anti-bacterial medicine (That one I trust so much) as soon as I saw it, and just to be sure, some Epsom salts too, there seems to be something wrong with her digestive tract, so the salts should help clear that up. I have some Furanol II as well, still haven't been successful with that, but there is an option to prepare a 30min bath treatment for the sick fish. I'm wondering if that would be something to try the days I won't be adding any of the other medicine?

Now I'm not sure if I should feed her vegetables and live foods as I planned, or if I should try and get her to eat some of those dense medicated pellets? Problem is, none of my goldfish enjoy those at all when they're so big and hard Undecided And I believe more in maximum nutrition than some dry, sterile pellets.

Let's hope she'll be better tomorrow! I'll be testing the water and seeing how it looks. I really, really don't want my sweet Berry to die, she's my first oranda and one of my first and oldest goldfish Cry I just grew so attached to her after I watched her grow and change after I brought her from that hellhole of a pet shop, and she's the only one left from there.
Wish us luck Cry
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scrivens345
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2011, 05:47:36 AM »

Oh dear Nossie, sounds like dropsy...fingers crossed for Berry

I thought dropsy was caused by high NO2...have you checked your main tank?
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Nossie
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2011, 07:44:32 AM »

Thanks a lot, scrivens! Smiley

In any case, she's doing fine so far, she's looking around for food and she eagerly ate the peas I fed her this morning, so I think I'll be going with the veggie/live food diet. Hopefully she'll recover! Tomorrow it's time for the second dose of the anti-bacterial medicine, so hopefully this will do the trick! I'll also top up the Epsom salts, just to be sure. Since excess liquid or digestive problems can also cause dropsy.

I tested the water in the main tank today, the nitrites were below 0.3, everything else was as usual, and I'll do a large water change tomorrow, clean the external filter and add some beneficial bacteria Smiley (Since I need to go to my parents' place for christmas) I'll leave on Saturday morning and come back on Sunday, then I'll test the water in the quarantine tank, change out some and if needed, add another dose of medicine.

Just in case, I asked my fish-guy for some advice, but he said that I seem to be doing everything just right unless there would be any other symptoms like spots or fungus. So, crossing my fingers here and hoping for the best! Smiley
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2011, 04:19:40 PM »

Good to hear you're keeping the trouble under control, Nossie! Hopefully the pineconing won't develop into full-fledged dropsy and go back to normal. Fingers crossed for little Berry; she is such a cute fish! Epsom salts really help with dropsy so good that you're doing that. And peas are great too for internal problems! Good that she's eating.... Wink

Could you soak the medicated pellets for 20 minutes and then feed them?  Smiley
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Nossie
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2011, 06:52:39 AM »

I noticed that the pineconing has concentrated onto one particular spot on her body, just behind the gill cover above her pectoral fin. Assuming it may be a wound of sorts, because it looks all red under the scales. I'll try treating it with some hydrogen peroxide, since they advice dabbing that on in the Fancy Goldfish book Smiley

Going to change out some water today, and add some more epsom salts as well. Hoping for the best!!

I could of course try soaking the pellets once more, but last time I did, I left them soaking for at least half an hour and the fish still had troubles with them! D: If she'll seem worse or something, I might need to try anyway though... >>
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Skwishee
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2011, 08:47:43 AM »

So sorry to hear about little Berry! My fingers are crossed for you and her!
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Nossie
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2011, 05:43:27 AM »

Thank you, Skwishee Smiley

I've got some news though, somehow, the pineconing spread to even the smallest scales of her back and belly, and she's badly bloated and seems to sometimes have troubles keeping her balance in the water. However, she doesn't struggle, she acts healthy, all fins erect, normal breathing and swimming behavior. The bloody streaks are also gone at this point, and I'm sort of concentrating on treating just the dropsy for now. I fed her peas again yesterday after the water change and started a new medicine and epsom salts treatment Smiley I also added a heater because I noticed our apartment was getting a tad cold, so now she'll stay in her normal 26 degree water Wink

I don't know, I have pretty high hopes this time, since she isn't acting lethargic at all! Smiley
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Nossie
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2012, 01:03:10 PM »

Okay, well, today I noticed that she more or less started bursting on the side, I could see the swim bladder coming out Undecided
Decided to euthanize my poor lady, she seemed to be getting tired as well an couldn't eat Sad
I hope I won't need to lose any more fish for a long, long time from now on! Cry

R.I.P. my beautiful, beloved little Raspberry Cry
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scrivens345
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2012, 01:19:54 PM »

Oh No! So sorry to hear that
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Skwishee
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2012, 07:52:39 PM »

Sorry to hear you lost her Nossie  Sad
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gwenblack72
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2012, 10:05:03 PM »

So sorry Nossie, I also just lost starburst this moring. I guess dropsy is just a terrible illness!!
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Nossie
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2012, 06:50:11 AM »

Thanks, everyone Sad

I'm so sorry to hear that, gwen! But then again, one of the first things I learned about goldfish health was written as such:
"Scales standing out allover body.
Cause: Dropsy, which is terminal.
Solution: None at present."
It really is terrible, especially when it spreads allover the fish like that :/
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Ron H
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2012, 11:23:56 PM »

Sorry to hear about Berry Nossie, my condolences. What a shocking disease that is, I do historical reasearch and came across Dropsy as a cause of death for humies too, I will have to look at how that is able to affect us.. I also noticed in your picture that Berrie's scales seemed to be very well defined, maybe this is a an early indicator of the pineconing of the scales starting, I would be interested to hear yours and other members thoughts. > Ron
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fantailer
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2012, 05:48:01 AM »

Wow its just going around right now.
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Nossie
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2012, 06:25:38 AM »

Ron: She always had very clear scales Smiley But this time, I noticed there were some tiny blood spots accumulating in them too, much like the fins, that could be why it looks like it does on the picture. Later the scales started protruding in this one spot just above her pectoral fin (almost noticable in the photo), and later it spread allover her body! The smallest scales on her belly and caudal peduncle were standing out even.
It's pretty easy to spot protruding scales while the fish is swimming around, you notice a rough look to their skin.

fantailer: You can say that again Tongue Everyone on the forum are getting problems at the same time :/
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 07:21:11 PM »

Ach Nossie I'm so, so sorry your poor little fish didn't make it. 

I have lost 3 of my babies due to that dreadful disease; one had bloody spots all over her body too.  I have yet to save a fish from that horrible illness.   

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Nossie
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2012, 04:45:46 AM »

Thank you, Goldie Sad

Me too, I kind of doubted I could do anything about it as soon as it spread like that.
But not once did her dorsal fin go down, that's a new one to me.
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 08:43:48 PM »

Hmm...I wonder why?   Undecided Perhaps it has to do with simply the fish's personality, I don't know for certain.  Maybe she was trying to put a good face on things.   Smiley
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Nossie
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2012, 04:43:54 AM »

Maybe she was Smiley That would be so much like her.. Wink
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fantailer
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2012, 05:26:50 AM »

Has anyone heard of a fish surviving dropsy?

Not me
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Skwishee
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2012, 09:14:31 AM »

When I was researching medicines, I came across medi-gold, I re call one review I saw a few months back when I was looking around at things, I'm sure it claimed that a pine coning fish had been saved, but again it was a review, who knows how trustworthy the source is (and my memory for that matter) and I can't seem to find the review since either, but this was the product - (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)

I imagine Dropsy is like most illness, catch it early enough and it can be treated.
But I suppose diagnosing is tricky with fish, as something like veins in the tail, can mean a number of possible things, impending fin rot, internal bacterial infection or it could be just poor water quality.

Nossie, I did read this on thegab.org the other day-

"Dropsy

Symptoms: Bloating and scales sticking out - making the fish look like a pinecone when seen from above. With goldfish this is often preceded by swollen eyes.

Treatment: Dropsy is not an illness but a symptom. The real cause can be bacterial, parasitic, viral or environmental and typically results in kidney failure. Also when fish dropsy, it is severely affected and internal organs may be damaged. For these reasons dropsy is very hard to to treat and often (but not always) fatal. Isolate the fish in a Hospital Tank. Keep the temperature in the high 70s. You can add 3 teaspoons of salt per gallons and bring calcium hardness up to 250ppm (with calcium chloride). Make sure you have plenty surface agitation to promote gas exchange. If the fish is eating feed Metromed or Romet B. If the fish is not eating, you can administer baytril or fortaz injections preferably, or bath antibiotics like maracyn plus, or maracyn 1 & 2."

So Dropsy itself is a symptom of something else.... I did not know that.

[Edit]

Ah ha, I found that review, turns out it was metro-med, not medi-gold XD (Got them confused) it was here- (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 09:23:09 AM by Skwishee » Logged
Nossie
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2012, 02:51:08 PM »

When I read through the first part of your post I was about to say "Dropsy isn't an illness even so there's no way to 'catch it early'" Wink But the quote you added here already clarified that.
Dropsy is fatal in 99.9% of the cases, because before the pineconing starts, the internal organs are usually badly damaged already.

I've also heard about bringing a bloated, pineconing fish to the vet and they'd expel the excess liquid from their body cavity with a little syringe, however, that's hardly possible here where fish aren't viewed as pets as much as a nice temporary room decoration.
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laurencasualty
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2012, 03:07:14 PM »

That sounds like what happened to little eva, the whole splitting open thing.. poor babies. So sorry for your loss nossie Sad
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Nossie
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 05:38:12 PM »

That's terrible, lauren Sad
If they only wouldn't get so sick sometimes...
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fantailer
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2012, 05:34:43 AM »

That means dropsy is working for something worse!!!!
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Skwishee
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Re: Bloody streaks!!
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2012, 07:21:25 AM »

Hmmmm, I wonder what triggers it all though?

While I can understand that dropsy is a side effect, sometimes, from organs failing... I imagine when that happens, sure some pretty nasty bacteria could get hold of the fish.... but I just don't understand it really.
What causes the scales to stick out like that, I wonder? And how come pine coning fish have been saved? Surely it could not have been organs failing in that case if they carried on to live healthy lives?

Hmm, what messes up the internal organs in the first place?

[Edit]

This is quite interesting, pretty much answers my questions! I took it from here - (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)

"Ascites (ascitic fluid)
An abnormal accumulation of fluid within the body cavity. The build-up of ascitic fluid leads to the condition known as dropsy in which the fish’s body bloats and its scales stick out.

Ascites is generally the result of damage or infection of the liver, kidneys or other organs that play a role in osmoregulation*. The underlying cause is often a bacterial infection, but sometimes a viral or parasitic infection, or simply old age, is to blame.  

This condition is often fatal and is very difficult to cure. Where a bacterial infection is suspected, antibiotics, from the vet, may sometimes be effective.

*Osmoregulation: the physiological process by which a fish maintains its internal salt-water balance."

"Dropsy
Potentially fatal condition in which the fish’s body swells up. It is caused by an abnormal accumulation of fluid within the body and is often accompanied by raised scales and sometimes pop-eye. In addition to their bloated appearance, affected fish may become sluggish and go off their food.

Dropsy is generally the result of damage or infection of the kidneys or other organs that play a role in osmoregulation, or the internal salt-water balance. Internal infections with certain types of bacteria and viruses, eg Spring Viraemia of Carp virus, can lead to dropsy. Some internal tumours, or simply organ failure through old age, can also give rise to this condition.

Dropsy can be difficult to treat partly because it has many underlying causes, some of which, eg internal tumours, viral infections and organ failure, are incurable. Also, by the time the fish develops signs of bloating, severe internal damage may have already occurred. Hence, over-the-counter remedies for dropsy cannot be guaranteed to work in all cases. Antibiotics from the vet offer the best hope in situations where a bacterial infection is suspected."
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 07:28:31 AM by Skwishee » Logged
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