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Author Topic: Pond pumps for tanks  (Read 798 times)
Caffuss
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Pond pumps for tanks
« on: December 27, 2011, 05:39:19 PM »

What do you think of using pond pumps for tanks? You can put a sponge on them and make a very effective Bio sponge filter, no? Roll Eyes
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Nossie
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Re: Pond pumps for tanks
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2011, 06:31:09 PM »

Can't see why not! Cheesy
I guess pond filters have lots of bio filter media, like you mentioned, so go ahead and experiment Cheesy
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Dragonii
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Re: Pond pumps for tanks
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2012, 01:33:26 AM »

They would turn over a lot of water but a big pond pump with a filter sponge would still be less bio filtration than a good canister.
Up to a 75 gallon you could do just fine with a single canister, 90+ use two canisters.... anything over 180 gallons just use a wet/dry sump.

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Caffuss
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Re: Pond pumps for tanks
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2012, 11:48:31 AM »

pond pump to cycle 700 gph cost about 30 dallors, canister at least 150 dallors.  Shocked
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Dragonii
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Re: Pond pumps for tanks
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2012, 12:40:11 PM »

pond pump circulating 700 gph does jack for actual filtration. Stick a 4x4x10" block sponge on it and you have nothing more than a 700 gph Aquaclear as far as actual filtration is concerned.

GPH does not provide bio filtration. Surface area for bacterial growth does.
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Dragonii
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Re: Pond pumps for tanks
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2012, 12:46:16 PM »

500 GPH canister for well under $100.

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Caffuss
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Re: Pond pumps for tanks
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2012, 03:54:05 PM »

I dont know, I have read about people  keeping Goldfish healthy 10 plus years with only a pond pump and no other filters of any kind. In fact theres a whole fourm of people doing this check out Goldfish 911
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Dragonii
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Re: Pond pumps for tanks
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2012, 04:28:54 PM »

You are missing my point.

This...
[image]

attached to this...
[image]

Is not the biological filtration equal of this...
[image]


No matter how much water you turn through that sponge (100 gph or 700 gph) it only has x amount of surface area for bacteria to live on.
Can you put it in a tank and use it for a filter? Yes, but you would get pretty much the same result with attaching a 250 gph pump to that sponge.
You could build a bank of sponges to give more biological surface area, but at what point do you cross the line and say "another $15 and I could have just bought a canister filter"?
Now if you are talking about a 300 gallon tank with two fish in it, then you should be ok, but you never specified the parameters of the tank in question. The small filter works in ponds because they have such a vast ammount of water with a low fish to gallon ratio.
So like I said, yes, you can do it. Just don't expect great results.

If you don't want to listen to me then go ask your friends over at Goldfish 911 which bacteria develops first, Nitrobacter or Nitrosomonas, and which is responsible for the conversion of what organic by product.

Also, if you are buying a 700 gph pond pump for $30... I assure you that it is a piece of junk. At the RPM's that a 700 gph pump turns don't expect it to last long. A decent 700 gph pump will run you $70. At that point you could just buy the 500 gph Odyssea for  $60.

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Dragonii
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Re: Pond pumps for tanks
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2012, 08:59:21 PM »

I checked out your Goldfish 911 site. Read a few post here and there, including the one between you and the Admin "Venus" about the use of carbon.
Thought you may want to know that she has no clue what she is talking about. Almost everything that she was telling you about the use of carbon is all false myths that have been circulating for years.
Activated carbon is used to remove impurities such as tannin and phenol (the byproducts of organic decay that turn water brown and make it smell like old fish), chlorine, hydrogen sulfide and heavy metals. Carbon will NOT absorb any significant amount of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate or salt.
She is also incorrect about carbon becoming full and then releasing it back into the tank killing people’s fish. Carbon works by a process of adsorption, binding materials on a molecular level (van der Waals force or London dispersion force). Once the molecular compounds are trapped in the carbon they cannot be released under the normal parameters of your aquarium. Specific chemical conditions are required to remove any substances once it is adsorbed, such as an extremely high PH value.... which would kill your fish long before the leached compounds did.
Chances are that those people’s fish died from poor maintenance. If someone is too lazy or cheap to replace the carbon on a regular basis I can assure you that they are also too lazy to do regular water changes.... and that's what killed their fish.
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Nossie
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Re: Pond pumps for tanks
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2012, 04:18:09 AM »

Very good point, Dragonii! Karma to that Smiley

I definitely agree on the bio filtration problem. The ones we've got over here look a tad different and have more sponges attached, not that it matters that much, but I'd definitely recommend getting a canister filter as well, may be expensive yes, but they're **** good filters!
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Caffuss
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Re: Pond pumps for tanks
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2012, 11:31:32 AM »

Well, I'm on the fourms to learn, but it is hard to know who is right, when you don't know the facts and you have to just decide based on what people say. So your saying that carbon does nothing to the bio cycle? Carbon is concidered chemical filteration, so it is not in there natural environment. Carbon can also be used with live plants? Live plants need iron, wont carbon remove it?  Huh Please don't be angery with me, I'm just trying to learn so I can do the best for my Goldfish.There belief on the pond pumps is that the high gph will  create the perfect environment for good bacteria..they need a lot of oxegen and bad bacteria, like still water. So with high water movement and surface destirbance there will be good bacteria all over the inside of the tank and the bad bac, wont do well.  Cry
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Nossie
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Re: Pond pumps for tanks
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2012, 12:35:57 PM »

Nobody is angry at you, of course! Smiley We've all been there Smiley
Carbon does not do anything to a cycling tank except remove harmful chemicals and discolorations of the water. Carbon can be used with live plants without problems, but I honestly don't know if it removes iron, I sort of doubt it.

Quote
There belief on the pond pumps is that the high gph will  create the perfect environment for good bacteria..they need a lot of oxegen and bad bacteria, like still water.

Meaning of course that the good bacteria won't have anywhere to live if you don't have enough biological filter media Smiley This is why external canister filters are superior, they have huge space for filter media and they are usually really powerful Smiley
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Dragonii
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Re: Pond pumps for tanks
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2012, 02:34:00 PM »

No, activated carbon is not in their natural habitat, but then again their natural habitat is not so concentrated. Think about it. You take a 100 gallon tank and put 10 fish in it, do you have any idea how many 100 gallon blocks of water have NO fish in them in the wild?
Even a fish farm pond does not have the concentration of fish that our aquariums have.

Now carbon is not needed in a tank, it is an option. But there are a lot of old myths out there about it that come from people that have been in the hobby for many years, people that have unfortunately gotten their knowledge from others in the hobby or from reading aquarium books. Not saying that aquarium books are bad, but remember, they are written by hobbyist, not scientist.
If they would just take the time to learn something about carbon from the scientific view they would know better. After all, the stuff wasn't invented for the aquarium hobby... hence the term "pharmaceutical grade".
It doesn't really remove iron, there are certain things that just won't react with it. It will however remove copper and mercury. It all depends on the molecular build up of the compound in question.
There are some desired elements in the water that it will remove or reduce, but for the average fish keeper it's not enough to be concerned with.
As for plants, the use of carbon with them is kind of old school. The newest ideas are bottled fertilizers, special substrates and co2 injection.

I understand their theory of high gph and oxygenation, but you don't have to turn your tank into a tornado to do that. You have a 20 gallon tank, right? Trust me when I tell you this, your fish would not be able to move around a 20 gallon tank with a 700 gph pump in it. **** man, I have two canisters on my 150 gallon tank, one 525 gph and a 350 gph, my fish can ride the current like it's Splash Mountain.

So let's talk water oxygenation. The exchange of gasses between water and atmosphere can only occur at the point of contact between water and air. Still water does not exchange gasses as well as moving water, hence stagnant puddles. Stagnant (non-oxygenated) water does indeed grow bad bacteria, it's what causes the rotten egg smell. They are anaerobic sulfur-reducing bacteria and they produce hydrogen sulfide (H2S) and sulfur dioxide (SO2).... stinks!
But also keep in mind, water that is being passed over a bed of bio-filtration bacteria at too high of a flow rate does not allow long enough exposure times for the bacteria to act. So at some point, water moving through the filter too fast actually begins to have the opposite effect. This why large public aquariums prefer to use sand based fluidized bed filters for bio filtration. They allow for longer exposure times between the water and the bio media and thus allow for more dense, more effective bio filtration.
Somehow I have a feeling that if you ask Venus to explain to you how fluidized bed filtration works she may be at a loss.
In order to enrich water with oxygen you do have to disturb the surface, this is where their theory comes in. That can be done however with several methods other than an extremely high out put pump that is going to make it hard for the fish to even swim.
Air pumps work well for creating surface movement, it's about all they do but they do it well. Powerheads aimed at the surface work great. You can even add a venturi effect to suck in air with the jet stream. Hang on power filter are good at creating oxygen exchange as they flow in across the waters surface. Wet/dry sump filtration is one of the best filtering systems at creating oxygen rich water but they are usually reserved for large tanks or salt water tanks.

Our personal choice here seems to be canister filters. They are powerful, have huge bio capacities, do an excellent job at cleaning the water, create the proper flow rate for aerobic nitrifying bacterial growth and do more than enough to help induce O2 into the water. You throw one of those on a tank with a spray bar or a fan jet and trust me, you will have more than enough oxygen in the water. You will also have clean water as they actually filter it.

So in conclusion, before you spend $30 on a 700 gph pump, $10-$20 on a sponge pre-filter and create a small, inefficient bacterial bed because the water is too fast to allow the bacteria to develop... spend $60 on the Odyssea 500 gph canister. The AquaTop CF-500UV is $119, but it is a great filter.  Now if you do have a 20 gallon... those two may be a bit much.  The AquaTop CF-300 does 264 gph and runs $60. It would be more than enough for a 20 gallon... but then again, an Aquaclear 70 would be more than enough for a 20 gallon and it is only $35. If you don't feel safe with that get the Aquaclear 110 for about $50. It would do more than a 700 gph pond pump and pre-filter would.

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