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Author Topic: Chronic swim bladder?  (Read 6242 times)
Goldiegirl
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Chronic swim bladder?
« on: September 12, 2010, 02:17:45 PM »

So my little red cap oranda goldfish is being kind of strange. Every night after she eats dinner she sticks her head above the water and gasps for air. Sometimes bubbles come out of her gills. After this happends she begins to struggle to swim to the bottom and starts doing crazy water antics, like log-rolling, spiraling, and sometimes even flipping upsidedown. I know this isn't diet related because I fed her peas the last few nights and it hasn't helped, its always the same story. I don't know whats causing her to gasp above the surface! I have very airated water and do regular water changes with PERFECT water quality (ammonia 0, nitrate + nitrite 0, chlorine + chloramines 0, hardness is hard, alkienity is about 180, ph is a constant 7.6) and I also feed a varied diet.

My feeding schedual is this: Monday is usually earthworms, Tuesday is my flake food - I pre-soak my flakes too - Wednesday is flake food, Thursday is veggies of some sort (usually something along the lines of corn, potato, peas...), Friday is flake food, Saturday is pea night (as I call it) and Sunday is fasting day (meaning they get nothing). This schedual can vary somewhat.

My water changes consist of  a 25-40% water change every Saturday and a gravel vacuume.  I also rinse  my sponge filter in old tank water so not to destroy the good bacteria. I also wash all the decorations in hot tap water to get the cat hair off lol....don't ask me how it gets in there ;p

Please, anyone with help or advise, let me know  Wink
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Andrea
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2010, 05:01:27 AM »

The only thing that I noticed was strange is that nitrates are at 0. This would mean your tank is not cycled as a cycled tanks shows traces of nitrates, generally around 20ppm. However, it really sounds like you know what you are doing so I believe this tank is cycled. Could you test the nitrates again? I dunno if it is harmful if there is no nitrates but it's not right.

I'm stumped really, sorry. Maybe it isn't a problem of diet or water quality but just a natural thing for that fish, it may have been born like that and it may only be showing now.

I hope someone else can help.
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Nossie
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2010, 06:27:12 AM »

To be honest, my Claymore is doing the same.. he's a chocolate Oranda Smiley I'm feeding them vegetables, seaweed, brine shrimp, blood worms and tubifex regularly along with the two/three kinds of staple pellets... I've no idea why he does this either!! Huh
Not to mention that the water's practically flawless...
I was wondering too if he had some sort of chronic swim bladder issue, since he WAS, after all, a bit constipated when I bought him and his friend Berry Huh And that should again be "repaired" through a varied diet with a big part being vegetables.
There is a kind of surgery that you can do on this kind of fish actually. I forgot exactly what it was called, but it's a procedure where the surgeon introduces a small pebble into the swim bladder to sort of weigh the fish down. It's of course done only if they notice the swim bladder being faulty in some way.

Well, hopefully someone who knows what it's about will post! Cheesy
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2010, 04:49:53 PM »

I tested nitrates again and they are actually not 0 but a .5 ppm. I think the reason for that is because I have no live plants in her tank. It's has been cycled for about a year... Huh Weird huh?

Nossie: Sorry about Claymore (cuuuute name  Grin) Does he gasp at the surface as well? I have a red and black oranda that was born with swimbladder problems around (named Topaz Cheesy) and gave him his very own 69L tank decorated too Cheesy planning to get some water plants but no clue what haha. Large areas seem to help swim bladder problems I think.

Yesterday I noticed my fishy she had a huge chunk out of her side and about 3 or 4 missing scales in that area. I gave her a salt bath and dabbed it with hydrogen proxide to disinfect it incase there is some bacteria in the tank that would love to infect it. You can see how she doesn't struggle in my hand like fish should when they're out of water. I examined her under a mini floresent light and noticed she is actually sunken in on one side. I feed her and feed her but she never gains weight! I'm afraid it's a paracite infecting her intestines and causing blockage. This morning she seemed fine without swim bladder problems but she just looks so dang skinny...Darting around sometimes too. Sounds like it may be paracites right?

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Andrea
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2010, 06:19:25 AM »

That sounds about right. There should be a way to treat that if it isnít too bad I imagine. Iím not sure and by the sounds of it you know more about goldfish than I do Smiley Which is good for your fish that you know what you are doing. It doesnít sound good that she didnít struggle but I think now that you know what this is, well think you know, than you can fight it. Maybe have a look to see if you can find a specialist vet to get more help.

Best of your luck, she looks lovely.
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Nossie
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2010, 03:13:37 PM »

Yes, he does, most of the time before and after feedings, even when I feed them sinking pellets o_O Otherwise, he's completely healthy and really active Smiley But I do wish there was something I could do about it.

About your oranda: There is a special medicated food... I believe it was made by Jungle, but any brand will do! It's especially made to rinse out internal parasites or worms Smiley You could try buying that and feeding her with it for a few weeks and see if it'll get any better.
Other than that, you're doing great with the wound! That's just how it should be! Cheesy But don't swab it too often with the hydrogen peroxide! Keep an eye on it and see if it'll heal!

Other than that, I can't give you any more advice, just make sure that the water quality is ideal, and the fish should get better Smiley
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2010, 10:40:49 AM »

Andrea: Thank you for the support Smiley I sure wish there was a specialist around here somewhere but I guess this website is as close to one as I can get.

Nossie: Sounds exactly like my fishy's problem! Sorry you can't make it better...
It's the 2nd day of treating with jungle parasite med. I couldn't get the food but I found a sinking fizz tablet (it may be just bull but we'll see) that supposidly (no clue how to spell sorry) eliminates internal and external parasites. We shall see if it even helps. I only dabbed her wound with proxide once because it seemed to really stress her out...but I'm continuing with the salt baths about once every two days.

On a lighter note yesterday whilst at Petsmart I picked up a 3 cm long goldfish with a huge tail and put her in with my Topaz outside. He's seemed pretty depressed lately over having no friends so I decided to give him a buddy. This morning she seems not so good...maybe she is too small to tolerate the cold nights we have out here Sad But if she doesn't make it then I saw a lovely chocolate oranda I wanted reallly bad...  Tongue
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Nossie
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2010, 12:14:03 PM »

Well, he's completely healthy otherwise, so I guess it's alright. But DO observe his behavior, in case it would get really bad sometime so he would completely lose control of his body.

crap that you couldn't find that food... strangely enough, they're selling that here, as the only kind of medicated food d: But let's hope that it's true about the tablets that they should eliminate internal parasites as well... Every two days, salt baths? You mean salt dips? That you're putting the fish into a stronger salt solution for a few seconds/minutes?
I'm not sure if there's a big difference, but if I was you, I'd add it to the tank itself as long as it's possible to combine it with the tablets Smiley That would be less stressful for the fish Smiley Besides, it would take care of the wound constantly that way, helping against infections Smiley

Maybe she is shocked about the temperature! Especially smaller fish should be kept indoors until they're big enough to take it Wink Not to mention that orandas are rather susceptible to swim bladder problems if they're kept outside in too cold and fluctuating temperatures. But that's again, only a possibility and not a "they will for sure!" xD What kind is Topaz? Smiley
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2010, 05:39:52 PM »

I have a .3 salt solution in the tank right now because I was treating for ich with my ranchu, and I left it in there whilst medicating...not sure if thats such a good idea because it doesn't say on the box if its ok or not, ha ha kinda forgot about that but there's not a problem so far. I guess it's not nessesary then to do the salt baths (or dips as you say) I wouldn't think it would do any harm but I stopped doing them anyways. Don't wanna stress her out, thats just the worst for them when they are being medicated.

Hmm I think you're on the right track about the temp. I did float the bag for a while (after rinsing it off of course) and the temp. seemed the same afterwards, but it does drop considerably at night - especially in the fall. She is just soooo tiny! I'm thinking I should bring her inside until she gets bigger and can handle the outdoor lifestyle.

Topaz is a red and black oranda, and quite a beauty too. That's the reason I put up with all his issues for so long :p At least, I THINK he is an oranda but not 100% sure because he may be a fantail - he has no wen yet Sad I would say he's about 1 1/2 inches long...if he IS an oranda, should he have his wen by now or not? Can post pics if you want. Ever since I put him in the big tank outside his swim bladder has gotton 99% all better. I could bring him in but he just seems to LOVE it out there, aside from being a bit forlorn without any friends. He eats alot of bugs, swims around a ton, and always comes to the side of the tank to see me. When I first bought him I thought he was yellow because the store had some kind of wierd yellow light and when they took him out it was like he put on a new scale armor suit!
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Andrea
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2010, 04:13:41 AM »

Extreme changes of the water aren't good so that could be a problem as I'm sure you know. Maybe you could buy a heater and have it on during these times? Just so there isn't those dramatic changes, I've been thinking about doing it myself.
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Nossie
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2010, 06:11:28 AM »

Most medications are alright to combine with salt, in my experience at least d: But then again, I rather try preventing disease than treating it, so I haven't been treating my own fish as much as other's Wink

But yes, if I were you, I'd bring the small one inside 'til she'll be bigger, it'd be a shame to leave her out to die :'c

Now, about Topaz, if he's got no wen yet, he's probably not an oranda, but you could still try to post a pic! Because there's usually a difference between orandas' and fantails' heads and noses Smiley
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2010, 11:20:26 AM »

I shall post a pic as soon as I can get some batteries for the camera. I brought Penny inside (thats what I call her) to my main tank...trouble is she is about the size of my fingernail and all my other fish are so much bigger than her! Some have been nipping her...I think I may just take her back to the store; I don't want her to be miserable.

In the mean time, I brought my yellow and black fantail who is about the same size as Topaz to be his friend. They get along really well Cheesy

Now I'm wondering about my red cap oranda Opal...last night after I fed her she did a summersault! Ack! Also, this morning she was gasping at the surface with BUBBLES COMING OUT OF HER GILLS. She seems worse ever since i've been medicating! I was thinking it may be oxygen deprivation or something, but I have a very high powered sponge filter cycling the tank about 5 times an hour and adgitating the surface. I also have an airstone in there and I just can't understand why she is doing so poorly. She shows no other outward signs of being ill; only that she has this major swim bladder problem and the gasping at the surface with bubbles popping out of her gills. I'm getting concerned now; does this sound familiar to anyone?
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Nossie
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2010, 12:09:22 PM »

Well, it's only reasonable that bubbles come out of their gills, since it's usually water passing through there, but if they're up by the surface, it's air that goes in through the mouth and through the gills, so that's nothing unusual or to be worried about.

Parasites, are usually a very common reason why fish are gasping for air as long as the water quality, filtration and aeration are all fine. So next step for you would be to have a look at her gills. It's quite alarming that she's getting worse :/
If you see the gills being pale or with darker patches, it could be a bacterial gill disease, but otherwise, it's probably some parasites like gill flukes or something like that... These are all quite difficult to cure unless you find out fast whether either of these are even possible infections in your fish.
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2010, 09:02:36 PM »

Alright, p-h-e-w, just a little worried about the bubbles. Her gills are not any unusual color..just their usual fleshy pink. Other than the gasping her behavior is fine now. My paracite med says on the back it treats for gill flukes, but somehow I don't think that's the problem. However I am continuing the treatments and will do a large water change this weekend. She's very active and alert, and I guess I'm just feeling very cautious about her. Maybe a little overly so, but I want to be a good fish mommy when one of my babies is sick Tongue
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Nossie
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2010, 02:21:15 PM »

Okay, so just keep treating then Smiley Let's hope she'll be better soon! Smiley
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2010, 07:32:43 PM »

Okay something really shocking happened!!!

I just found out she is not a she, she is a he!

I was eying her under one of my tiny flashlights I use to check for external parasites, abrasions, and other such small things that need close up examination, when I saw tiny, salt-like dots covering the gill plates. I checked over the rest of her body for signs of ich, but there were none, which makes me think that Opal, my precious, sweetheart fish is no longer female.

It's a boy!

Funny thing, here it's autumn and typically you don't see stuff like that until late spring/early summer. I suppose it's because it's been pretty warm here and I haven't turned on the fan in the room for the past few nights like I usually do. Well I guess I can still call her Opal or even Opie like on Andy Griffith...maybe her off behavior has really been something to do with her his amorous feelings lately  Roll Eyes
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Nossie
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2010, 02:34:50 AM »

Aww! Strangely enough, my new moor is displaying breeding tubercles too! Allover his pectoral fins and gill covers Smiley I'm thinking that he might've gotten into some warmer water than he's used to, that's a very usual spawning trigger Smiley Maybe all the live foods I'm feeding them is helping too! Cheesy
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Hanna
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2010, 06:33:10 AM »

Opal is a very good name for a man too, lol Grin. Sounds precious too.... btw I LOVE OPALS Cheesy
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 04:29:06 PM by Hanna » Logged
Goldiegirl
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2010, 09:59:53 AM »

Nossie: Oh that's awesome! Did you know his gender ahead of time or did you just guess he was a guy?
Hanna: Thanks Grin I love opals as well, he looks like a little opal all sparkly in the sunshine!

I think the swim bladder problems were perhaps caused by him spawning with one of my other fish and damaging the swim bladder...just a wild guess. I never saw it but they could have...whatcha all think?
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Nossie
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2010, 03:37:00 PM »

I decided to go with the theme simply, and call him Mr. Big since there was a Mr. Popo Wink Maybe I had a hunch! Cheesy

A swim bladder can't really be harmed that way... the fish would have to be hit very hard by something for the swim bladder to be deformed or damaged. It's usually some internal problems in the form of infections or constipation that cause swim bladder issues. Unless it's connected to water quality as in, high nitrates Smiley
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2010, 10:59:01 AM »

Well whatever the trouble with my Ops, it seems to have pretty much vanished. She (I mean he, can never get that right) occasionally gasps at the surface but other than that... Cheesy
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Nossie
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2010, 12:10:15 PM »

That's great! Cheesy
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andiy
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2010, 10:25:42 PM »

I got the same problem here. My ryukin got cronic  swim bladder. I already follow almost all guide in the net, but nothing changes.
Only one that i'm not doing, like Nossie said before, surgeon.
Couple days ago, in television, there is a show about fish breader. In this show, the farmer explaine how to take care swim bladder desease in "Kerapu" fish. He uses a needle to remove the air from the belly fish. I want to try this method to my ryukin, but i can not bear to do it.   Sad
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Nossie
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2010, 03:41:07 AM »

andiy: Yes, there are different ways to deal with swim bladder disorders! Either the quartz implant coleotomy, or you use a small syringe to remove the excess air from the swim bladder Smiley But this is something you should leave to a professional, unless you know just how deep to go with the syringe!!
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2010, 10:02:26 AM »

OOOOK! That would be bad...

Andiy: One thing I tried with my oranda Topaz when he had a seemingly uncurable swim bladder problem was putting him alone in a large tank. The more water space it seems the faster he healed. Now he doesn't have to struggle to swim anymore so maybe you could try it?

Nossie: MY RED CAP IS NOT BEING VERY SMART! Every single night after dinner it's gulp gulp gulp at the surface and then he acts like he's in a rip-tide, flipping around like an acrobat. Sometimes during the day she'll be swimming around normally and then suddenly race up to the surface like her tail's on fire and start gasping again. Could it be a tapeworm? He seems to be just so dang skinny...
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Hanna
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2010, 02:52:47 PM »

If you notice the fish darting like that, test the water parameters asap. It also could be a drop in pH (too acidic) which causes the fish behaving like being stung by a wasp.
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Nossie
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2010, 02:02:01 PM »

Goldiegirl: Tapeworm? Actually, I doubt it... unless you've been catching bugs/worms outside to feed to your fish? They usually get internal parasites introduced through their live foods. But if you want to be certain, you could always try to feed her some medicated food against internal parasites (worms included), I don't know if I said that already :'D You could also simply test the water an extra time and observe the fish for a little while Smiley If she really looks thin, but is eating normally (or a lot), it might just be worms!
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2010, 09:56:30 AM »

Haha the only bugs she (I mean he - why can't I get that straight!?) eats really are knats that sometimes fall in the tank. Sometimes I feed her earthworms but I've heard they can't get worms through those. And yes, we call him The Pig  Wink because he eats so much but never gets any wider. I keep testing the water almost every day and my results are fine.

I've also heard that an internal blockage (like a worm) can cause intestinal tract disorders, like swimbladder. However it seems the swim bladder only attacks when he's been gasping at the surface after eating.  Tongue That seems to be the main problem; I just can't figure out why he's doing it  Huh
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Nossie
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2010, 10:25:13 AM »

It sounds really tricky! D: But if it's been like this for a long time with the fish (that it looks thin), then it's probably nothing to worry about! But if it's something more sudden, I'd really give him a little dose of de-worming food Smiley
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Chronic swim bladder?
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2010, 02:06:12 PM »

Alrighht....thanks for the info.. He's always been that way I guess, but at least last night after he ate he looked slightly plumper which is what I was looking for. Also, male fish are said to be thinner than females and he just looks pretty puny next to all those girls Tongue
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