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Author Topic: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??  (Read 701 times)
Heatherr85
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Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« on: March 06, 2012, 08:20:21 AM »

I have a 75 gallon established tank. I had the same fancy goldfishin it for about 5 years. (2 black moores, and 3 misc. fantails) They started coming down with white stuff on them. (not ick it was more fungus looking), soon after they were sluggish and laying at the bottom. I wasn't exactly sure what they had so i purchased a med. that covered a wide range of illnesses. (rid-ick: it says is covers many different kinds of protozoan & fungal infections)
 
I would treat them as stated on the package, and they would appear to get better. Few weeks later it was back again. This went on and on for about a year until they all finally passed away. I have 4 cory cats that have survived all of this with NO illnesses
 
SO... after all of those fish passed I drained the tank, rinsed the gravel with water, refilled and cycled it. After 2 weeks of cycling I put more fancies in. They were fine for about 2 months, then the same thing started happening to them. WHATS GOING ON? Is there something lurking in my gravel, are the cory cats carrying disease? I have no clue.
 
I don't test my water, I've had aquariums for 10 years and have never tested, just did routine partial water changes and vacuuming. (please dot lecture me on testing the water)
 
Anyone know what's going on??
 
I do a 25-50% water change every other week, my filter is an over the back one rated for the appropriate gallons. I leave the light on for 6-8 hrs a day. I keep my temp at a steady 72.

ps. the cory cats have lived through all of this
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scrivens345
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2012, 09:00:39 AM »

you are a) probably UNDER filtered , you need 750 gallons per hour on that tank

b) your water changes are far too small..you should change AT LEAST 50%

You should have the light on for 10-12 hours a day

You might well have been keeping fish for years; BUT you've been doing it wrong. This is why your fish die
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2012, 02:05:02 PM »

I agree with Scrivens, karma for telling it like it is.
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Heatherr85
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 04:28:27 PM »

Scrivens,
thanks for the info. I have a: Marineland Emperor 400 Filter System
For Aquariums up to 80 gallons; Model Emperor 400; 400 GPH.

A)I bought it because it was for 80 gallons and my aquarium is 75gal. What would you recommend?
B)I've read everywhere and have been told by many to never change more than 50% of the water at a time. Where did you get your information from? Although more frequent changes wouldn't hurt.

and thank you for your jab at the end, I didn't say I was a pro..no where close. I'm here to get better at this and learn, so why the snide remark?


ps. what's this karma rating thing, do these forums award you for "telling it like it is" aka being rude, rather than helpful?
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scrivens345
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 04:45:33 PM »

goldfish require twice the filtration compared to tropical

goldfish produce lots of waste....suppose they produce x amount of waste in one week..a 50% water change would leave x/2, then the next week you would have 3x/2 waste...therefore you must remove at least 50 %


if you follow this regimen you can expect your fish to live between 10 to 20 years...the British record for a tank kept goldfish is 40 years


even magazines like practical fishkeeping underestimate the filtration demands of goldies, as most hobbyists are temperate/tropical....

I have 1750L filtration on my 200L with 2 juvenile Ryukin, I do a 50% weekly change and a mid-week gravel clean(10-20%) as a bare minimum
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 05:42:27 PM »

As for the white stuff on them- if it looks like a milky film it could be caused by a PH crash but you will never know without testing the water. Whatever the white stuff is the illness is most likely caused by a water quality issue. There are all types of "bugs" in everyone's water all the time, most fish never become ill. My last parasite issue followed a nitrite spike (I was aware of this since I tested the water). I do not recommend medicating the tank, it's usually unnecessary, heat the water to 80 degrees and add salt. I always have luck with 1 tablespoon aquarium salt per 10 gallons - others will recommend other doses. The most important thing though is perfect water quality so if I were you I'd implement weekly (or twice weekly) water changes of 50%-75% and start looking for a much more powerful filter (the Fluval fx5 is very nice, I love it, a bit over 900 GPH).
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Skwishee
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 05:56:43 PM »

Hi Heather and welcome to the forums.

Sorry you've been having trouble lately.
As Scriven's has mentioned, goldfish are much messier than tropical's when it comes to ammonia produce and it is generally recommended that their filtration be 10x that of the tank size. This is a general rule, so it's okay to be a little under or over. The large amount of waste is also the same reason for the large weekly water changes.

Your routine sounds fine, you just need to increase the amount and frequency of the water changes.

With regards to the illness you've been seeing, did you clean the tank itself and any ornaments within it? I am just wondering if it's possible for the fungus in question have lingered on one of these? I'm not sure about cory's being carriers, that's something you'd need to look into, as I've only ever heard of snails being vectors of an illness.

It is also possible that the goldfish are more sensitive than the cory's which is why they are affected. This is only guess work, as I am not familiar with cory cat's.

The illness appearing again could be due to stress amongst the fish as they are new stock, it could also be the water quality. If the water quality is bad, this can affect a fishes immune system, making it more susceptible to illness, and if the bacteria/fungus is already present in the tank, it will take advantage of this. While you may not have felt the need to test the water during your previous experience with fish keeping, it may be an idea to take a sample to the local fish shop, who may be able to test it for you, just so water quality being an issue can be ruled out.
As good water quality will help the fish fight their illness.

I found this interesting bit of information about 'fuzzy' growth, I'm not sure if it is what your fish have, but it might be worth a look.
(Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)

As I see Cheri has mentioned, salt would be a good thing to try out first, as it is a good natural remedy and won't affect the water quality Smiley

Do let us know how you get on and best of luck.
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Heatherr85
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 06:41:36 PM »

Thanks again for all of the help everyone Smiley

I will be shopping around for a new filter and start doing 50% water changes weekely(is that enough or should I do 75%)? Ive just always been told NOT to do more than half at a time so i never have.

I do use aquarium salt when I do the water changes/vacuuming.
 I took a sample of my water in today to get tested and they said everything was great except the nitrate which was slightly above normal. They call the water "pretty much perfect."

Do you guys recommend a canister filter?

I really appretiate all of the help
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Heatherr85
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2012, 07:37:08 PM »

****i meant do you guys recommend a certain canister filter, besides the one mentioned? Maybe one a little cheaper?
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2012, 08:59:02 PM »

Aquatop is good and can be used in addition to your current filter. Only use salt when your fish are sick just as with "real" medicine, using it as a preventative makes it less effective when you really need it. The larger the water change the better right now. Just be especially careful to ensure the new water is the same temp and properly conditioned. I highly recommend heating the water to eighty degrees, especially since the parasite is probably a bit resistant to salt. Some people treat parasites with heat alone, others with salt alone. Using both gives you a great chance. As I mentioned I had an unknown "milky skin" parasite following a nitrite spike. After about 20 hours in 80 degree water the five fish dramatically better. Whatever treatment you use do it for at least 10 days even if they look well.
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Vicloz2006
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2012, 08:27:41 AM »

When the first lot of fish got I'll did you quarantine them? I remember gettin fungus in my tank once a long time ago, one fish made it and turned black the other one didnt! I can't really remember what we used now but it never came back! Maybe you should get a fungus treatment and treat the tank with that, whether it has fish in or not just to kill any fungus that may still be in the tank( you know on ornaments and gravel, even in the pump) then clean them all. If you are using salt regularly this may now not work so it is worth a shot! You need to kill it in the tank not just on the fish!

I don't have the knowledge that most people on here have but it does sound more like fungus than a parasite and I know their are fungus medications! I am only suggesting as you have tried changing the water, salt and rid-ick! Just thought it might be worth a try!

On water change I do 2 50% water changes a week and then every other week take them out the tank give the gravel a really good suction and change the water 3-4 times to get rid of most of the waste. I also clean the filter and rinse the ornaments when I do this. I treat the water to remove chlorine, wait for it to warm back up a bit then put them back in. This seems to work for me and the fish, snails and plecs seem happy! Am I wrong to do that? Just thought I would ask as we are having the discussion on water changes! I gave done big water changes since I can remember and started doing 50%water changes after coming on here!
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Skwishee
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 05:44:44 AM »

Hi Vic,

You shouldn't need to take the fish out of the tank to clean the gravel. Just be careful when you do it, as I often move driftwood around the tank to vacuum under it, I just make sure Lucky is no where near me when I'm moving stuff in the tank around.

The vacuum should be sucking up the waste, so I'm a little un-clear why you need to be changing the water 3 -4 times to get rid of waste the vacuum should be sucking up? If you find the gravel really messy, maybe you could vacuum it once a week instead of fortnightly?

Heather, with water changes, I'd agree with Cheri that salt isn't needed, unless the fish is sick. The issue it causes as Cheri has mentioned, is that bacteria or parasites present in the tank, can build up a resistant to salt, so should your fish become ill with a salt resistant parasite/bacteria, it will make it more difficult to treat.

With new water, just make sure the temperature is roughly the same, I find it difficult to get it exactly the same and often my tank decreases in temperature slightly when the new water is added.
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Vicloz2006
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2012, 06:27:36 AM »

I do roughly two 50% changes a week and vacuum the gravel it just that it doesn't always get rid of all the waste and it builds up so that I have to do a big clean it might not always be every 2 weeks (I loose track sometimes). I don't remove all waste as I know the tank needs some for bacteria I just don't like there being so much in the tank!
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Skwishee
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2012, 05:56:27 PM »

May I ask why you do 50% twice a week? Usually 50% once a week is fine, unless you're having issues with one of the water parameters?

I find vaccuming and 50% change once a week is okay, but then again I do have only one goldfish!  Wink
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cheri_alexander
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2012, 06:04:57 PM »

I also do multiple large changes every week, even though my parameters are usually perfect. The fish seem to enjoy it as far as I can tell, they are always very active after the change. My feeling is that being a close relative of a river carp they should have as much fresh water as possible. I vacuum one half of the tanks at a time- so each part gets vacuumed only once a week. Every two weeks or so I do a major clean- moving everything, vacuuming everywhere, scraping algae of the front of everything and replace 80% of the water (also rinse my filter sponges at this time). My way is, I'm sure, unnecessarily excessive but I enjoy it and they don't mind. I have read that the more water you change the better.
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scrivens345
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2012, 02:21:02 AM »

I live by the motto: " If in doubt, do a large water change" Grin
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fantailer
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Re: Fancy Goldfish, weird illness??
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2012, 05:40:50 AM »

After doing a 50% water change I'm happy if I haven't shorted out the whole house!
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