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Author Topic: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?  (Read 1215 times)
cdale
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2012, 05:49:44 PM »

Sounds like youve got a good plan, let me know what the results are! Smiley
I did a water change with prime on wednesday and when I tested it was quite high! :O So had to do another today!  Undecided
Also, the frayed fins are getting much worse, noticed today especially after? a water change that they were getting worse? So confused? What could this be? Im worried now! Just the ammonia or is there anything else I could be doing wrong?!  Huh
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Skwishee
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2012, 04:16:23 PM »

Hmmm well I did my second 50% water change today, thoroughly cleaned the heck out of everything in the tank and used Prime, so I'm going to test tomorrow and see what's happening.

When you say it tested quite high, I assume you're talking about the ammonia still? What was the result?
Are the frayed fins still quite clean cut? No secondary infections lurking? i.e pinky-white edge on fins, blood in the fin tissue.

It's odd that it's getting worse after a water change? Are the PH in your tap and tank the same? That might be something to just double check. Perhaps it's the PH fluctuating?

I can understand the confusion, I'm not sure either Undecided

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cdale
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2012, 06:08:31 PM »

Could be the pH I will have to check what that tap water is?!
Its getting and worse and worse! I think theres a bit of secondary infection in his tail? I have added salt for fin rot so going to see what happens. Because I know the ammonia is still present but I have been doing so many water changes that it can't be affecting him too much?
Its around 0.25-0.50 still...Just cant get rid of it....It seemed to be worse after prime :/
Hope yours is ok? At least lucky isn't showing any signs of long lasting damage Smiley 
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Skwishee
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2012, 06:27:32 PM »

Apart from gasping like a nut earlier today, she's doing okay.

I'm beginning to wonder if there's a connection between her eating and gasping, as just after feeding her she went on a gasping/foraging spree, which she stopped doing and calmed down once I'd done a water change.
It's strange, I fed her brocolli the other day and she spent forever eating it and nibbling at things, not going to the surface once. But feeding her a pea today and as I said she went up and down like a yo yo.

It's almost like, if she's distracted with something she doesn't bother to gasp. Like after the water change today she was far too busy eating algae and I didn't see her near the top at all after that XD
She is certainly a weird fish.

It's odd that Prime would make the ammonia worse?
Water changes will only be helping alleviate the ammonia level. Perhaps double check your tap water?
I tested mine and it looked like 0ppm, but I re-tested it again with my tank water at the same time and they were both the same colour, so it was still around 0.25ppm. I even cleaned the test tubes (soaked them in warm water) and tested again just to be sure, had the same results.

I was wondering if fin rot would appear. I believe there's a thread about treating fin rot with Hydrogen Peroxide, so if the salt doesn't help, perhaps try that?
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cdale
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2012, 03:55:14 PM »

Do you think sometimes she is just looking for food? Carlos keeps trying to suck the plastic hood over the water, he is very noisy doing it though ha! Sticks his head right out of the water! Maybe she is just playing? Bless!

I'll test the tap water again when I have a minute Smiley It's really hard to tell if it actually has secondary infection, it isn't white and fuzzy just frayed!  Undecided Thanks, I will resort to hydrogen peroxide if it gets bad but at the moment, touch wood, it's not bad enough to do that. I will see what the salt does. I have also found a good product called cycle which my Dad recommended to help with the ammonia so going to see what that does?...
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Skwishee
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2012, 05:50:42 AM »

Hi Cdale,

It turns out her gasping IS related to food as I suspected.
I did a little experiment and the results were this;

Thursday 29th - Fed brocolli attached to a seaweed clip (Observed 10am - 11.30am)
Times Gasped: Once - very quick/nothing much at all

Sunday 1st - Hand fed half a pea (Observed 10.20am - 11.00am)
Times Gasped: x41 (Often gasping multiple times, or for a prolonged period)

Monday 2nd - Hand fed 2 or 3 pinches of soaked flakes (Observed 10.10am - 10.50am)
Times Gasped: x53 (Often gasping multiple times, or for a prolonged period)

Tuesday 3rd - Fed nothing, but was observed eating algae/plants (Observed 10.35am - 11.15am)
Times Gasped: None

So yeah.... interestingly someone on another forum has suggested this could mean Lucky is allergic to pea's and flakes. I never knew fish could be allergic, but it's certainly interesting. I suppose if she does it with certain items, it could indicate that. So looks like more investigating!

As for the ammonia, still holding out at 0.25ppm. I really don't know what else I can do about it now XD
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cdale
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2012, 06:46:29 AM »

Yeah I am like that with my ammonia, its down but damaging my fish long term...
Wow, I didn't know fish could be allergic to foods!?! But yes that experiment certainly suggests there is something about the flakes and peas  Undecided
I have noticed after peas Carlos gasps, so I would have suggested that she was just searching for it because it is hand fed? But investigate further Smiley
I would just be careful about diagnosing a food allergy because the ammonia over time could do damage couldn't it? That's why I'm worried. But let me know how you get on Smiley

Have you researched an allergy to food in fish?  Smiley
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Skwishee
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2012, 07:04:07 AM »

Well given at the moment, I no longer see Lucky gasping, I assume it's the food and not the ammonia.
She gasps after eating and then usually after a few hours has stopped and is busy eating the algae like a machine.
Honestly so far today all I've seen her doing is eat algae XD She loves the stuff.

I'm going to look into fish having allergies and ask on another forum if they have the same issue of eating/gasping.
But you also make a good point, if she's going to the surface looking for the hand of food. Although the fact she can see me sat on the bed and no where near the tank, maybe she's just being hopeful?  Grin
She does swim up and 'gasp' when I'm filling test tubes, so you may have a point there.

But either way, it's just a relief to have a cause behind it and it's not that I've deformed her gills or something with the st*pid ammonia.

Again with the ammonia, I am wondering if our tests are picking up the safe form of ammonia that Prime converts it into. But I'm not too sure on that theory, that's me hoping I don't have to keep doing 2 - 3 water changes all this time!
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cdale
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2012, 07:26:27 AM »

Yeah I have been doing every other day but I am going to leave it a few days now and see what happens...But then I test it and it comes out with 0.25-0.50 so I panic and do a water change but its getting annoying now...Yeah maybe it is picking up the safe ammonia that prime or my cycle stuff is converting it to?

Yeah do a little more research and see if anyone else has the same problem? I just notice my fish does it after eating anything out of my hand because I presume he just likes to search?! hmmmm...it's a tough one! Times like this when you wish they could talk and tell you?! I wish Carlos could tell me what the water is like haha!  Grin we wish...

I do hope in your case though it is the food, much better than the ammonia! Poor Lucky! She does have some problems...then again so does Carlos at the moment  Undecided
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cdale
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2012, 09:06:27 AM »

Just so everyone can see what colour my test comes out at every time I test it is this type of green...
Never seen yellow!  Angry
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cdale
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2012, 12:32:10 PM »

Right, also here are some pictures of his fins now...much worse! I am determined to get to the bottom of this!!
As you can see his back fins are bad and in the second picture his other fins are getting worse...But other than that you can see he is a healthy fish  Huh
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Skwishee
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2012, 01:41:52 PM »

This has been posted in the FB group as well, but wanted it here too; (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)
Check out the second question Wink Some one on another forum directed me to it, so thought it might help explain both our situations.
As I'm not sure how long you've been cycling for, but I've had this tank set up for over 2 months now.
The person on the forum told me that if the ammonia stays at 0.25ppm or less, then it should be okay. Seachem do mention a specific ammonia test that goes with their conditioner (good marketing strategy!) so I might look into it. The API ammonia test does nothing but annoy me anyway XD

I see what you mean about Carlos' fins. Is there anything, anywhere in the tank he could be catching his fins on? I ask because once Lucky had a red mark on the periscope part of her dorsal fin, it went away fine and I assumed it was because she had at some point caught it somewhere.
I did read a story on here somewhere of someone's goldfish fin randomly getting split.... and they used hydrogen peroxide to heal it... will try and find the thread now...
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scrivens345
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2012, 02:03:53 PM »

The strip-based test kits don't give the false reading in my experience
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Skwishee
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2012, 02:16:05 PM »

Seachem states "A: A Nessler based kit will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime®... it will look "off scale", sort of a muddy brown (incidentally a Nessler kit will not work with any other products similar to Prime®). A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away."

Not sure what strip tests fall under?
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cdale
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2012, 04:28:06 PM »

I used to have test strip tests, didn't think they were as good?
Should I keep at it with the prime then you think? Skwishee do you add it by bucket? Thanks for being so helpful! Smiley Finding these posts and stuff, makes me feel so much better!
I was thinking this afternoon, he sleeps under the filter, could his fins be trapping in the vents maybe? But not all of them would surely? The tank is clean, with the slight ammonia, does seem strange that he has this because the water isn't really bad right?
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Skwishee
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2012, 04:52:37 PM »

A small amount of ammonia, is not good, particularly over a prolonged period of time as when the fish survives, you're never quite sure if and how the ammonia has affected them. Carlos hasn't been 'exposed' as it were to ammonia for that long and I know you're on top of water changes and cleaning.

As for Prime, yes I add it per bucket. I usually aim to do 0.3ml per 8 litres of water -which is 1.5x the normal dosage because of the **** ammonia in the tap water. Sometimes I accidentally add a little more, but this is never a huge problem as the other day for example I used my jug to top up the last 4 litres in the tank, but didn't bother to treat it. I figured as I'd over dosed, accidentally putting 0.5ml in 2 buckets, it would be fine. Lucky certainly hasn't been bothered.
I find the syringe a little annoying and often I get drips through the bottle adapter or air bubbles in the syringe, I eventually get there! Sorry it's late at night and I realise I'm rambling slightly!

I hear people say all the time, strip tests aren't as accurate as liquid tests. One day I'll look into the reasons why, because it's a very intriguing argument I hear, but no one actually explains the evidence. Maybe I'll go ask in another forum now actually.....

Interesting idea on the vents, perhaps watch him for 20 minutes at certain times of the day and see if he does anything?
I have been known to sit on my bed opposite the tank with my laptop (before it broke) and I would do stuff on that and then occasionally glance up at Lucky, see what she was up to. It was handy when I had to do things, but wanted to keep an eye on her at the same time. Especially when I had the hypochondriac phase of thinking everything was wrong with her lol XD

Rambling done now....
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cdale
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2012, 06:18:35 PM »

Yeah I sit with my laptop facing his tank actually and he does not show any worrying behaviours, just acts normal, eats, sleeps, searches for food etc. Just a normal little chappy apart from these fins!

Just an up date so everyone knows, I have successfully (I think) applied hydrogen peroxide! Smiley So going to see what happens...
I'm going to check to ammonia levels in the tap water tomorrow and see what it is? Then I might go off your prime measurements?!

Yeah I have no idea why they say test strips aren't as good I just got told to get the liquid ones, to be honest my strips weren't very accurate, I do feel safer with liquid...
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cdale
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2012, 05:42:42 AM »

Just to let you know Skwishee I have tested the tap water for ammonia and there isnt any for sure...Hmmmmm!  Undecided
Im about to do a water change I wont clean the filter and I think I am going to do another does of hydrogen peroxide but only on one fin as I am not sure if I can apply to everywhere?! Seems a bit much...
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Skwishee
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2012, 08:40:38 AM »

If there's no ammonia in the tap water, then a normal dose of prime will be fine.
If ammonia is still present, it's either one of a few things; The Prime has skewed the results as mentioned in the FAQ I showed you or it's just that the bacteria can't keep up with Carlos. Perhaps keep up with the water changes, but gravel clean a little less?
It's possible that the bacteria are being disturbed too much or if the gravel is too clean, there won't be anything for the bacteria to feed on, if that make sense? Of course if the ammonia rises in doing this, then by all means go ahead and clean.

I'm not really sure beyond that Undecided
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cdale
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2012, 01:55:22 PM »

Yeah I was thinking that to be honest, thanks for being concerned Skwishee! Smiley
I will do the water changes but only put the poo up and not properly hoover and see what happens? He is a big fish so maybe he just produces too much waste for the bacteria?!
Yeah when I add prime I still have the darker colour of green in my ammonia test so could be prime doing it? That post makes sense, was useful thanks! Smiley
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Skwishee
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2012, 01:59:47 PM »

Do you check the colour of the API test right away or do you leave it to settle?
I think the FAQ was on about taking the colour it turns right away? At least that was how I understood it!
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cdale
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2012, 02:19:02 PM »

Before leaving it for 5 mins?
Yeah I tested nearly straight after my water change, would it be different if I left it?
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Nossie
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2012, 03:00:28 AM »

She mans leaving the sample after you add the chemicals to it. Some tests need a while to settle, it would say in the instructions usually if they do Smiley I have a test that needs to sit around for 2 minutes, and another for 5.

However, testing right after a water change is seldom that accurate either, if I were you, I'd check the morning after Smiley
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Skwishee
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Re: Fin rot? Or could it be something else?
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2012, 03:11:15 AM »

When using Prime, the FAQ on Seachems website suggests checking the colour straight away,

"A Nessler based kit will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime®... it will look "off scale", sort of a muddy brown (incidentally a Nessler kit will not work with any other products similar to Prime®). A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away."

If you leave it too long, as the quote states, the ammonia-Prime complex will break down and give a false reading.
I'm hoping to test mine today and check the colour straight away, but I'm still considering getting Seachems actual ammonia test kit later on. I might look into it a little first. Only because I find it hard enough to read the API ammonia one XD Let alone read it when the results are being messed with  Cheesy

I personally never test after a water change. I feel that the water change will have done it's job, so I don't test it.
If I'm concerned about anything then I test it the next day  Smiley
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 03:13:51 AM by Skwishee » Logged
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