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Author Topic: Goldfish: Bullied and tired?  (Read 1305 times)
zekram
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Goldfish: Bullied and tired?
« on: January 13, 2010, 11:39:10 AM »

Weekends were spent on practical shooting but with a gunban imposed in our islands, I started with this hobby 3 days ago. I have a 75 gal tank, overhead filter and a pump/aerator rated at 2500L/h.  I put in 4 orandas and 3 shubunkins, all abt 3-4 inches long, 4 tiger barbs which kept on chasing their tail fins and 6 very unmindful angelfishes.  I made a partial water change yesterday as I noticed the water got darker.  Today, out of eagerness, I put in 2 koies which are abt 10 inches long.  After 6 hrs, I noticed that 1 oranda became inactive, staying mostly at the top level, another is gasping for air and a shubukin lost her(?) dorsal fin.  Could this be caused by the larger koies who are more active and felt bullied or the tireless tiger bards? 

What I did was to transfer the 3 goldies to a basin, temporarily while I get a new aquarium just for them goldies and transferred all the tiger barbs to another 75 gal with 8 oscars.  Do I need to put a bit of salt into the basin? 

I saw a 6in poop in the basin, might have come from the 'inactive' oranda.  Is this a sign of overfeeding?

Glad for your inputs.  Still have newbie questions but these gets tops for now so I can save the 3 goldies.

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SeaWitch
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Re: Goldfish: Bullied and tired?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2010, 12:19:46 PM »

Your 75g tank is way overstocked and underfiltered and not cycled.  Fancy GF need to be kept seperate from tropicals and koi.  IMO, koi and single-tail GF need to be kept in ponds only.  They need a much larger space.  I would take the koi back to the store where you got them unless you plan on building a BIG pond for them. Commets and commons need at least 20g each.  You really need to keep your tropicals and GF seperated.  Also, an oscar will eventually need a 55g tank all by itself.  You need adequate filtration for GF of 10x the size of the tank, so a 75g tank, fully stocked with fancy GF at about 5 fish, needs at least 7500gph of filtration, but more is better.  You need to invest in a good water conditioner and water testing kit that tests for ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, and pH.

I would put the orandas in a tank to themselves with good filtration, the tank needs to be at least 40g, with at least 400gph of filtration.  I would add about 40 TSP. of dissolved aquarium salt to the tank to bring the salt up to .1%.  Check the water parameters at least once a day.  What are you feeding the GF?
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zekram
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Re: Goldfish: Bullied and tired?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2010, 12:57:37 PM »

Thanks SeaWitch for the inputs.

I feed them with the generic pellets and flakes.  Tried with blanched chopped green leafies earlier which they ate a little.  They also wont touch the Sera stick-food Bio granulat which the petshop recommended.  I'll check with the petshop if I can return the kois though the wifey loves them.  If ever, will just keep them in a separate tank.  I think you are right with the underrated pump I have as I can barely see the air bubbles from the aerator nozzle.  I've got to get one with your recommended specs and those kits too.  I dont have the aquarium salts for now.  Can I put in a rock(table)salt which we use for cooking?

The tanks and pumps are all hands-me-down from my brother who stopped with the hobby when the arowana and giant gourami leapt to their deaths.

Noted on the oscars; will let them be at the moment.  This is a bit very stressful seeing my 3 'patients' barely holding.  Hope they recover soon and fast.

If there is anything I need to know and do, I dont mind losing tonight's sleep.

Thanks much.


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SeaWitch
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Re: Goldfish: Bullied and tired?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2010, 06:13:42 PM »

Don't use table salt or rock salt.  I know some ppl do, but I have heard that some of the ingredients can cause problems for fish.

So, you have the three orandas in a basin?  Any filtration at all?  Do you know aprox. how many gallons the basin holds?  The ammonia is going to build up fast with three fish in a tank with no filtration at all.  You will need to do several large water changes a day to keep it at a safe level until you can get a tank set up.  Personally, I would go with at least a 40g tank (but bigger if you can) and as for filters, I use the Marineland Penguins.  The 350B's are great.  An Emperor filter is a good one, as well.

Food; you really need a good sinking pellet for the fish as a staple food.  Flakes hardly have any real nutrition and they float.  Goldies need sinking food.  If not, they suck air at the surface of the water when eating and get the air into their swim bladders.  This can cause swim bladder disorders, which usually are permanent.  I feed my fish homemade gel food because I have "adopted" several fish with swim bladder problems and they cannot digest any pellets or commercial food now.  However, some good foods to have on hand are:

1.  Pro-Gold pellets
2.  Peas (frozen and unsalted.  I use the Birdseye frozen ones that I nuke for 25 secs in the micorwave, pop them out of their shells, mash and feed).  Peas are good for keeping the fish's digestive system cleaned out.
3.  Fresh zucchini.  This is really good for fish to snack on.  Just wash it, cut into thick slices or quarter it and put it in the tank.

I could go on and on about fish food.  LOL!  It is also good to have some meds on hand for when the fish get sick.  Can you describe to me their symptoms now?
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Katarine
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Re: Goldfish: Bullied and tired?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2010, 08:36:10 PM »

Table salt isnt good for fish as it contains iodine (which consequently also stains clothes in its pure form). Stick with aquarium salt
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Nossie
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Re: Goldfish: Bullied and tired?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 03:21:10 PM »

Or any salt that doesn't contain iodine or any kind of added minerals. There are tons of different salts.
Whichever you choose, make sure that there's a label saying that it's 99.97% salt! So have for example table salt, with no iodine C: But I guess it's safest buying aquarium salt... either way, I don't have much else to say about this, it was just a little reply to the last post! : D
Good luck with those fishies of yours!
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zekram
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Re: Goldfish: Bullied and tired?...Frothy water... black spots
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2010, 07:43:15 AM »

Thank you for your replies.  Just an update:

I did a 50% water change at 2am when I posted this SOS, put in dechlorinator, rock salt (didn't have the aquarium salt) and added a 1600lph pump to the 2500lph.  Put them back in the tank.  At 5am, I made another partial water change abt.10% but they all died when I called up at noon from work.  Sad, but at least I tried saving them.

This early morning I did another partial water change, plus the dechlorinator and (now) aquarium salt as indicated as I noticed that the water was a bit frothy along the sides of the tank.  A sad development though is that one of the small oranda has black spots on the back of its head, pelvis and tail fins.  I read somewhere here that it could be due to ammonia burns.  What could I have missed doing?  Did the ammonia intoxication just set in today?  What's the cause of a frothy water?  I might have to do another partial water change?

I've already transferred the 2 koies in a 50gal tank.  So the 75gal is pretty spacious now for the 2 orandas, 2 shubunkins and 6 1inch-long angelfish.  If allowed, can I put in other small fishes; how many and which variety/kind that won't hurt my goldies?

I found the recipe on how to make the gelatin but will give them the plain peas first.

I am now realizing that it's a big challenge raising goldfishes. 
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SeaWitch
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Re: Goldfish: Bullied and tired?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2010, 08:02:22 AM »

Goldfish are one of the hardest fish to keep, IMO.  I'm sorry the others died. Cry

As for the black spots, yes, that does sound like healing ammonia burns.  However, if they are black, then that means they are healing, so that is good.  I persoanlly would not add anymore fish to the 75g.  I know it may look spacious now, but those fish are going to grow FAST and they will need all the room they can get.  Shubies need at least 20g each, but I recommend even more room for them because they are actually pond fish and need alot of swimming space.  Here is an example:
When I got my first two GF, a fantail and a demekin, the fantail was about 2" and the demekin was about 1.5" total.  A year later, they were both about 5" without their tails.  Now, three years later, they are at about 8" without tails and only the two of them would fit in a 75g tank.
The thing with GF is that if you want them to live long lives and be healthy and grow, then they need lots of room, good food, and clean water.  GF can live up to 25 years or more if they are taken good care of and they can get HUGE!
Just keep testing your water and keeping an eye on the parameters, especially the pH, ammonia, and nitrite.
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zekram
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Re: Goldfish: Bullied and tired?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2010, 08:21:20 AM »

Thanks always SeaWitch for bearing and your very informative inputs.  At least, I can sleep soundly with that encouraging news on the healing thing.  Just to correct my earlier posts, I think my two remaining 'orandas' are actually 'commons' as they don't have the red bulge on their heads.

I'll get those kits tomorrow; forgot to buy them in my haste looking for a new tank.

OT:  next I need to learn is about the oscars; they murk the water pretty fast.  Do you know of a good forum site?  These are like 'pups' same as the goldies.
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SeaWitch
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Re: Goldfish: Bullied and tired?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2010, 08:27:19 AM »

Do the orandas have a double tail or a single tail?  Commons and comets only have single tails and fancy GF have doubles.  As for the O's, I know a little about them, but I am far from being an expert or anything.  I do know that they have to have EXTREMELY clean water and can not tolerate high nitrates at all.  I also know that they are prone to getting Hole In The Head.  They need a variety of food, too. 
I am sure if you look around the net, you should be able to find a good Oscar forum. Smiley  I love O's, but I just don't have a tank big enough for them.
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zekram
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Re: Goldfish: Bullied and tired?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2010, 09:00:10 AM »

looking at them more closely, one has a head-bulge but not as prominent as the two dead ones, with double tail fins; the other has no head-bulge but its tailfin is like triangular (1 top with two bottom); this am pretty sure as the wifey noticed the same.

i must admit that i impulsed-bought the oscars.  i shd have asked around and searched the net first.  i was hoping that the two petshops i went to will guide newbies like me.  am learning thru the hard, difficult route.
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