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Author Topic: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.  (Read 1383 times)
blondie
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Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« on: January 23, 2011, 06:02:31 PM »

1. How big is your tank:  Gal / litres 30gal

2. For how long has the tank been set up: 2yrs

3. How many fish:2

4. What kinf of fish:gold fish and red cap oranda

5. What are the water parameters:  We just changed the water today so don't know what it was before. Can test later.

  Ammonia..........25 ppm                                                                Nitrite.............. 0 ppm
                                                            Nitrate..............0ppm
                                                            pH....................76.......
                                                            Temp..68-78.............degrees Celsius / Fahrenheit

6. How often do you perform water changes: 1 x month

7. How big are your waterchanges:      ...........80-90..........%

8. What kind of waterconditioner are you using: using filtered water

9. Do you add beneficial bacteria: no??

10. Symptoms your fish is showing: red cap only has growth on eye and  head is discolored and irregular (even for a red cap) Tail fin was the first thing we noticed looked like it was disolving, that is why we thought tail rot. That occurred about a year ago and we thought it was just going to take time to grow back but now she is getting worse.

11. Since when does your fish show these symptoms:   1 yr but has gotten much worst.  
We have as several pet shops and treated fish for fin and tail rot as they suggested 4 or 5 times with no change.  No one at the pet shops can help we have tried everything they said til we were afraid to over med too much.  
 

12. How is the normal behaviour of your fish: stays at bottom and sleeps all the time. Just gets excited when we come to tank and talk to her. then she goes up and down like she is trying to go to top.

13. How do the other fish behave: normal

14. Post pics of the sick fish:yes
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 09:38:39 PM by blondie » Logged
pappy-fish81
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2011, 06:49:58 PM »

Oh poor fish. Sad
Mindemae and Nossie are the "vets" here. They'll give you a good advice soon. Smiley
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pappy-fish81
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2011, 06:51:54 PM »

The best thing to do right now is post the results of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate asap.
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April
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2011, 10:24:18 PM »

Hi, from the photos it appears your red cap has a fungus. Whether or not it is a body slime fungus, I'm not 100% certain. You need to treat even the filtered water with a good water conditioner. They work immediately to remove chlorine, chloramine and some also remove ammonia. Prime or StressCoat are good water conditioners, as they both lower ammonia as well which is why I use them.

Get some aquarium salt and Pimafix and follow the recommended dosing and directions on packages. The carbon insert in your filters media will need to be removed or it will be less effective a treatment. This method isn't as hard on the fish as heavier meds can be. However, if you must use stronger meds be certain there is ZERO ammonia present in the tank before adding them. The chemical reaction is devastating and could kill your fish.

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Mindemae
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2011, 10:48:48 PM »

If I were you, I would take your fish to a veterinarian that will treat aquatics.
Your fish has an overgrown wen, interfering with his eye sight.
He has a fungus and probably a bacterial infection causing tail and fin rot.
He needs specialized treatment that no one can help you with on here.
He is very weak and looks like he also has some swim bladder issues.
You cannot keep healthy fish changing the water only once a month by guess and not testing it.
Good luck with your fish, I hope you can find help for him in time.
The only other alternative is to put him down or have him put down, humanely.
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April
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2011, 11:28:41 PM »

Blondie this is the first time I have ever replied to a post asking for help where I did my best to suggest sth that might be helpful. I don't know, each situation is unique. Maybe it is just me but I feel like I was just shot down...as apparently I fall into the category of no one...I'm so done with the negative when all I try to do is be positive. All the best to your lovely fish.
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aimeekat
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2011, 12:02:07 AM »

April hun don't think minde meant anything against you. She just see this fish in bad shape. Blondie has tried to treat it with no success for a year and maybe it is best for the poor guy to be put to sleep to end his and the owners suffering. I am no expert Blondie but I think even if your baby could be healed it will be a long and painful process and i think this is where minde's thoughts are also. I had a fish with a overgrown wen slowly stop getting around and seem to kindof give up because it couldnt see. Alot of large wen fish live fine even if become blind by it but others don't. Someone told me the more stationary a fish is the more prone it is to infections. If you decide to euthenize Clove oil which i have been told you can get over the counter at pharmacys is most humane way if you so decide. Another option people do it put fish in a bag or container with its own tank water and put it in freezer this is supposed to slowly put fish into hibernation then they fall asleep and freeze. Clove seems to be best option if you can get it around you. Now if you decide to treat tomorrow morning there is a fish pharmacist that will answer all question for free at fishyfarmacy.com 1-520-298-7814. They can help you with anything fish illness and they won't push their products on you unless needed. Good luck hun!
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pappy-fish81
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2011, 12:05:26 AM »

Please get a test kit soon that way you know what's going on with your water.
There is a cheap price at walmart.com and you can use their site to store to ship it. That's if there's a walmart store near you.
Here is the link:
(Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)
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Mindemae
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2011, 12:31:26 AM »

Wow, this is a great price on this Master test kit by API.
Thanx, Pappyfish for posting this link.
Now I know I can get the API test kit at Walmart which is near me.
The petstores are alot further away! Smiley
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pappy-fish81
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2011, 01:33:58 AM »

Your welcome Mindemae Smiley
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April
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2011, 02:37:26 AM »

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April hun don't think minde meant anything against you. She just see this fish in bad shape. Blondie has tried to treat it with no success for a year and maybe it is best for the poor guy to be put to sleep to end his and the owners suffering. I am no expert Blondie but I think even if your baby could be healed it will be a long and painful process and i think this is where minde's thoughts are also. I had a fish with a overgrown wen slowly stop getting around and seem to kindof give up because it couldnt see. Alot of large wen fish live fine even if become blind by it but others don't. Someone told me the more stationary a fish is the more prone it is to infections. If you decide to euthenize Clove oil which i have been told you can get over the counter at pharmacys is most humane way if you so decide. Another option people do it put fish in a bag or container with its own tank water and put it in freezer this is supposed to slowly put fish into hibernation then they fall asleep and freeze. Clove seems to be best option if you can get it around you. Now if you decide to treat tomorrow morning there is a fish pharmacist that will answer all question for free at fishyfarmacy.com 1-520-298-7814. They can help you with anything fish illness and they won't push their products on you unless needed. Good luck hun!

No she didn't it is just me being a fool again, I'm no good at this I'm sorry. Take care Cry
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Andrea
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2011, 03:58:15 AM »

April: I would have said the same thing as you and it was good advice which would help Smiley I never knew there was such thing as an over grown wen and I imagine you wouldn't either as you don't own fish who grow wens. Minde would have meant no offence to you, she probably didn't even read your comment and was just re-acting straight to what Blondie said. Don't take stuff personally or negatively especially when there is no need to, we all love you on here Cheesy
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fantailer
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2011, 06:16:08 AM »

Is ammonia 25 ppm or 0.25 ppm. 0.25 ppm can cause ammonia burn but 25 ppm can kill your fish in minutes.
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Mindemae
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2011, 09:34:48 AM »

Yes, I was responding directly to Blondie and not to you April.
I didn't even read your responce until after I posted.  Sorry... Undecided
Blondie,
I still think the fish has suffered long enough.
A vet would be qualified to make the decision.
I do think injections of maybe Baytril are in order.
But with ammonia in your tank, no amount of treatment will save your fish.
You have to get the water quality pristine before you have even a slight chance of saving your fish.
 Sad
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Nossie
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2011, 09:51:16 AM »

How are you changing that much water at a time? Are you leaving your fish in the tank during the process, or do you just empty the whole tank and clean it thoroughly?
The best thing you can do about the ammonia is to start changing about 40% every week, and testing the parameters every day!
If you notice the ammonia slowly going away being replaced by nitrite, you're on the right route Smiley

However, this fish doesn't look very healthy at all, I'd definitely bring it to have some of the wen removed, it's growing far too big.
And the fin rot seems to have developed quite badly, so you really need to start working on getting the water in order so that you can start treating asap...! If you have a cycled quarantine tank, that would be ideal!
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blondie
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2011, 11:16:38 AM »

Thanks for everyone's advice!! I did get buy a tesing kit unfortunealy befor e I saw the Walmart blog...so I propbabley paid more at the pet store 32.00??   I posted the results maybe they do not show up? But since we had just changed the water I am not sure it is conclusive...or??  Everything was 0 except ammonia .25.  The fish are my husbands and he has been taking care of them and Yes Nossie he does leave the fish in while he drains water with a suction hose.  He suctions through the rocks to remove the gross stuff settled there.
So to recap for now we should do 40% water changes 1 time a week.  Get the water stabilized.  Then treat for fungus and fin rot?  I think the fin rot has gone she just lost alot of fin when she had it.  They actually seem to be growing back now.
She had a wen (didn't know that name til today) about 1 month ago and it just fell off but looks like it grew back, it is in the same place?
We can't take her to a "specialist".  Aprils gave great advise on the medication??  Are we all in agreement here??
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blondie
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2011, 11:26:57 AM »

Oh also I could never put her down.  If you would see how excited she gets when we come near the tank she is a happy fish even when she is sick.  This is why all the pics are blurred she swims all around when we are nearby. 
She has always had some bladder problems that is very typical for rec caps but when I give her the peas that takes care of that.  It got so bad a couple years ago that she could only swim upside down, it was so sad but the pet shore once again had no answers to I found out about the peas online too. We have had her about 4 yrs.

Thanks to all who helped me and made suggestions!!!
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blondie
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2011, 11:30:54 AM »

Oh one more thing when we do the 40% water change should we take the fish out of the tank or just take them out when we do the suction cleaning??
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Bel
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2011, 11:41:56 AM »

I have read about the bladder problems so much also in certain goldfish varieties.  Diet is the key there from what I have read.  

I'm not any kind of expert at all, I'm a newbie myself trying to learn as much as possible to keep some healthy and happy goldfish.  I really hope you can get that fishy healthy again.  Sounds like you care a great deal for her.  Welcome to the forum Blondie!  
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April
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2011, 02:09:39 PM »

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Yes, I was responding directly to Blondie and not to you April.
I didn't even read your responce until after I posted.  Sorry... Undecided


You don't have to be sorry Minde. I took it personally when I shouldn't have. As I said in the PM a lot going on the last 24 hrs. Still this is no excuse for me acting like a fool. I'm sorry to everyone. Thanks Andrea for saying that - very sweet of you ♥

Bottom line I really hope this lovely fish will pull through, such a shame he is so ill.
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aimeekat
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2011, 03:44:58 PM »

Blondie i called the fishyfarmacist he said it could be something called lymphocystis virus. now this is based on my discription from the blurry picture. It is free to call him. You can look that illness up it is incureable but he said he has seen fish live years with it. It is contagious to your other fish if it is that. Here is a site i found with discription and a picture at bottom of the virus. (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.) He also said to be careful because we are unsure what this is and some of these goldfish illnesses are bad for humans too. I hope this helps and i would recommened calling him if you have any questions its the phone number i put on my last post on this thread. Hope everything works out.
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Hanna
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2011, 05:16:25 PM »

OK, gals, now that I am awake again and I seen what happened on here during the night, LOL, I want to put my 2 cents in too.

First, Blondie, welcome to the forum.
Thanks for answering the questions.
According to the answers the following is wrong:

6. How often do you perform water changes: 1 x month
Should be done weekly 40-50%, also according to test results
7. How big are your waterchanges:      ...........80-90..........%
Waterchanges should be done according to test results AND once a week, we recommend up to 50%
8. What kind of waterconditioner are you using: using filtered water
using filtered water is not enough. You should use water out of the tap adding water conditioner like PRIME according to instructions. Conditioners remove chlorine, chloramine, heavy metals, Prime also detoxifies Ammonia. You can use the water straight away
According to filtered water: April used to use it too, and always had Ammonia readings. Until I asked her to test for Ammonia straight out of the tap without being filtered AND the filtered water. It showed that the tap water didnt have Ammonia BUT the filtered water DID....
9. Do you add beneficial bacteria: no??
Beneficial bacteria are essential to speed up the Nitrogen Cycle. They are bacteria which convert highly toxic Ammonia into Nitrite which is stil very toxic and Nitrite to Nitrate which is toxic at levels of 40ppm and above.

All illnesses come from poor water conditions. Only because the water looks nice and clear, it must not be the case. Therefore testing is essential. Tests should be performed on a regular basis, at least once a week. The results also show at which stage the cycle is.
In your case, changing the water once a month 80-90% your tank NEVER had a chance to cycle. This is the main reason for your fishie to develop fin rot.
In early stages ( about one year ago) you would have been able to treat with Pimafix and Melafix and the fins would have been back to normal in a few days. Providing to have pristine water conditions - which you obviously don't have according to the wrong maintenance, otherwise the treatment would have worked out.
SORRY YOU WAITED FOR SO LONG TO SEEK FOR HELP Cry
Now you may need stronger med and here is the question if the fish will survive the stronger treatment after being sick for over a year now Cry


The other thing is the overgrown wen, as already mentioned. This is sth to put in hands of an EXPERIENCED fishkeeper or even VET to remove excess growth. And treat for the other grow over the eye. Hard to tell what it is...

According to your test results in your first post:
Ammonia: is it 25 ppm or 0.25 ppm. Looks to me as the first is the case, just want to be sure.
Either way, it shows that your tank is not cycled at all, never has been with waterchanges that big once a month and no beneficial bacteria ( Primary reason for sick fish )

In future, please do 40-50% waterchanges weekly, add beneficial bacteria ( Stability ) and conditioner (Prime) both from SEACHEM. ( Also other brands available )
You can leave your fish in the tank while doing waterchanges.
At this stage you may want to do waterchanges twice a week to get things up and running properly, following the advice on the bottles too.

HOPE THIS HELPS A BIT TOO
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 05:37:55 PM by Hanna » Logged
blondie
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2011, 06:35:51 PM »

Thanks and yes it was .25 test was light yellow with a slight tint of green.  ??

Thanks again for all the great advise.  And for the record we did take the water to the pet shop several times and they said it was in normal range and we did treat with Melafix many many times.  I am just not sure these kids at the petshop knew what they were talking about. or if the water was tested properly.  I worked at a pet shop for about 5 years thru high school and college and I never recieved any information on sick fish.  I knew what ick was and that was about it. That is because our fish there got it.

So to everyone maybe a petshop is not the best place to find out.  this forum looks like a much better solution.
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Hanna
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2011, 11:33:27 PM »

Yes, we know about the petshop advice, we all have been there.
This is why I never trusted it if I was told all is fine... I prefer to have my own equipment to test and then I know the exact numbers. Because even a trace of Ammonia and Nitrite are not fine at all.

And medication only works in a pristine environment.
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Andrea
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2011, 05:13:36 AM »

If melafix isn't working, stop using it!! Yes it will only work in perfect water quality but if any medication had no effect on the fish, I think you should stop using it and try something else. This is what you would do for yourself, right?

I think calling that number Aimee gave you would be great, these people know what they are talking about unlike id*ots in a general pet shop. Hanna also gave alot of great information, please read it carefully and act on it. I can't help with the wen thing, that is why I think you should call that person and/or follow Nossie and Minde's advice.

You also have to work a bit harder to fix this swim bladder problem, yes it is common but it also should not be happening and you should be working hard to fix it. Do you always feed them a variety of food? Have you tried epsom salts?
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Nossie
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2011, 09:44:21 AM »

Melafix is actually cr*p when it comes to treating fish that actually are sick. You should use melafix only when you see slight symptoms or small wounds on the fish. It doesn't treat ANY bacterial illnesses or anything like that, it's a natural remedy that's useless as soon as your fish shows that it's ill.

Use "real" medications instead, anti-bacterial and -fungal meds are called for sometimes.
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aimeekat
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2011, 10:44:10 AM »

Lol glad I am not only one who thinks melafix and pimafix pretty much useless once a fish really sick. I meant to ask the pharmacist what he thinks of them but forgot. Will ask him next time.

Hey blondie how is your fish? Any improvement or any worse?
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Nossie
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2011, 04:25:44 PM »

aimee: When I googled on it, I came across a very interesting article on another forum about melafix, pimafix and how they work (if they work). My conclusion is that anything that melafix can treat, can also be treated with a water change Tongue
Here's the article: (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)
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Andrea
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2011, 11:17:10 PM »

Nossie, I've learnt that too Smiley Definitely agree with it then as I've seen stuff heal by itself or with a water change which I would have in the past treated with melafix and pimafix. They are good for wounds and slight symptoms as you explained. I reckon aquarium salt is often better to use for the things some people would use melafix and pimafix for  Undecided
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Nossie
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Re: Help my red cap is very sick pet shops are no help.
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2011, 12:07:30 PM »

There are even conditioners with the same effect (if not better) as mela/pimafix! Shocked
Which is why I prefer to have some of the conditioner on hand which I could use anytime, instead of having bottles of unused "medication" that I wouldn't really need Tongue
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