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Author Topic: HELP NEEDED ASAP!  (Read 1318 times)
Yana_Grobb
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HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« on: January 14, 2010, 03:18:16 AM »

i need advice with my outdoor fish pond. i always used to have comet & common goldfish in my outdoor pond but i recently got into the whole fancy goldfish vibe, so now its become more like a hobby. although thats not my problem. the day after i bought like +- 30 assorted types of fancy goldfish, all of a sudden my fish started dying..at a rapid pace. not the fancy goldfish but my older comet and common goldfishes. at 1st i thought it was cause the water started looking dirty so i cleaned the pond [not knowing then u suppose to keep a 3rd of the old water to keep some bacteria fish need] cause my old fish are quite a hardy type of goldfish and they have never died of it before. i also took out all of the waterplants that seemed to be making the mess in the 1st place. they were still dying. then i went to our local fish pet store to ask 4 advise and they told me to put as many water plants that i have into the water to get that bacteria back and put a fountain pump into the water to create more oxygen into the water. so i did. but fish are still dying. and now its effecting my fancy goldfish 2, i lost 4 oranda pearlscales in 2 days time, not even 2 mention +- 3-4 comets & common goldfish per day. i know the pond is big enough 4 all of them and South African weather is ideal 4 all the types of goldfish i have that they can be kept outdoors. i give them normal goldfish flakes and they all seem to eat fine. they seem to be swimming better now 2 but everyday theres still fish dying. i have no idea what else to do? any1 have advise on what else i could do?

and also, my comets and common goldfish layed eggs and i took them out to a different pond and when they got a little bigger (4-5 months) i put them back in with the others. and the next morning they were all gone. i was wondering if any of my fish would have eaten them? i had the following fish in my pond at the time: common goldfish, comets, fantails, calicoe orandas, redcap orandas, pearlscale orandas, lionhead orandas, black butterfly moors, panda moors and bubble eyes.

any help would be greatly appreciated. thanks!

Yana
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Kemo
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Re: HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2010, 04:43:29 AM »

Could be a water quality issue or some type of disease you introduced to the pond with the new batch of goldfish. Did you quarantine the new goldfish for a few weeks at all or just put them into the pond with the other goldfish right away? The first thing i would do is to perform a complete water test for ammonia, nitrate, nitrate, pH, ..the works... to make sure the water is fine and not the cause of the problem. If the water checks out ok, then the next thing i would do is to look for some type of disease. Check the goldfish for anything abnormal , such as fin-rot , blisters, red streaks, white spots, etc..

The smaller goldfish you placed back in the pond with the older ones were probably eaten by the bigger fish. You should wait till they are  a little bigger before you place them back with the other goldfish. Goldfish are very opportunistic feeders and will eat eggs, baby fish, and anything else they can get inside their mouth, so keep that in mind.
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SeaWitch
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Re: HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2010, 08:25:56 AM »

I would like to know how big your pond is and how much filtration you have for it.  What type of water conditioner do you use?  Kemo is correct in the diagnosing; quaranteening fish is VERY important before you add them into your community tank or pond.  I, too, believe this is a water quality problem or the new fish introduced a bacteria of some sort into your pond.
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Yana_Grobb
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Re: HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2010, 08:59:27 AM »

i went and bought these test strips just now and this is what it said:

ammonia - 0 [ideal]
total hardness (GH) ppm - 75 [soft]
total alkalinity (KH) ppm - 40 [low]
ph level - 6,8 [acceptable]
nitrate (no 3) ppm (mg/l) - 0 [safe]
nitrate (no 2) ppm (mg/l) - 0 [safe]

the pet shop told me to buy the following products 4 my pond: water clarifier, water conditioner and bio-filter booster. are those things necessary or are they just taking me 4 a ride to buy things i dont need? im somewhat new with this whole goldfish thing and i wanna do it right, but i dont wanna be taken 4 a ride by greedy pet shop owners either, so any advice will be much appreciated. 

well atm i only have a pump that sprays the existing water in the pond like a fountain because the pet store told me not to pump new clean water in until they have stabilized [for about a week or so]. something about giving time for the bacteria to get back into the pond from the water plants i put in. although i started stressing cause at this rate im only going to have 10 or so fishes left at the end of the week so i got people today to come put a propper expensive filtration system in. im not sure what filtration system it is but they assured me they know what they doing and that they have done koi and goldfish ponds with the same consept b4 and had no complaints and that it is a good make. im truely hoping this is true and that this will help.

i wanna ask though, while they were working the one guy shocked when he put his hand in the water, so obviously the fish must have felt a shock 2 [although it didnt look like they did but common sense tells me they must have] and he told them to put the electrisity off untill the done with the system. what i want to know if that shock might cause some of the fish 2 die aswell? i will be very angry with them if it does. fancy goldfish arent cheap cause the petshop imports them and i love all my fish and i dont want them 2 die because of some id*ot.

now that u mention diseases, i did notice some of the new fish getting little white specs on their heads. but it wasnt there when i bought them. is that a disease and if so, what causes it? because i thought it was that white stuff the males get on their heads in breeding season (i read something like that when i was reading up on all my goldfish) but maybe i miss understood what they meant.

no i didnt quarantine the fish, just did that thing where u leave the bag in the water 4 a while till the water temp is about the same. i didnt know i had 2.

thanx 4 telling me about the baby fish, i will do so with the next batch. how big must they be +- before i put them back into the other pond?

the pond is about 1,5m x 2m and 0.7m deep

oh and thank for the quick replies!
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SeaWitch
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Re: HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2010, 01:19:43 PM »

Were the white spots just on their heads, or on others parts of their bodies, too?  I am not familiar with meters, so I need to calculate to see how many gallons your pond is.  I do want to ask what the water temp is there as fancy GF can not handle very low temps.
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Nossie
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Re: HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 02:50:40 PM »

Maybe you should raise that KH value a bit? That would keep your Ph on a more stable level (:
I read somewhere that if the Ph is lowered too much (which is very possible if the Kh is low) the fish will start hovering by the surface, do they? If it's lowered even more, they start gasping for air, finally if it lowers again, their skin gets burned in the acid, and they die. I also read that during nights the Ph is lowered because of the plants consumption of... ions or what it was. (I read this in 'Fancy Goldfish' by Richard Hess and others)
So try checking if that might be the issue! It might be the reason why you find dead fish everyday...

I currently have pretty low kh and the ph is on 6.5, so I have to get some chemicals to raise it asap. One of my fish doesn't seem to like this (he's hovering too), so please, check closely if any of your fish seem to display this behavior!

I'd also like to ask about those spots you mentioned... were they on your orandas and the other species with headgrowth? Or was it only on the heads? If so, I don't think this is something to worry about (:
Since you didn't quarantine your new fish you might pretty well have introduced your older ones with some disease... check carefully if you see anything abnormal about your fish.

Btw, your fish babies, not that I know very much about breeding and the like, but I have read pretty much about it. I think you shouldn't introduce them to your other fish until they are too big to fit in the bigger fishes' mouths, to make sure that they won't get eaten! Wink As previously mentioned, goldfish like eating.

Finally, I don't think the petshop's trying to fool you! I am regularly using a bio-filter booster, and it's very effective (: I also use some kinds of water conditioners, and they might be useful if you're using tap water.

Hope you'll get this problem solved! We don't want any more of your beloved fish to die!
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Yana_Grobb
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Re: HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2010, 07:10:04 PM »

no its just on their heads, its very tiny specs though, u wont see it if u not looking 4 it.  but none of the dead fish had those spots on them. no wait im lying, the 1 did, one of the smaller comets i bought from of the new batch. those white specs ive noticed are on some of the following fish: comets, common goldfish, black moors, panda moors, lionheads, red caps and fantails. only ones that i didnt see it on was my pearl scales & bubble eyes. its quite difficult to see if any of my white coloured or calico coloured fish has them. so i dont really know about them.

"the fish will start hovering by the surface, do they?"  O_O  some of them do. ive noticed that especially the panda moors hover at the surface. and some of the fantails. the pandas tend to go hover at the surface between the plants. but i dont know whether they go hide there because they want to get away from the other fish or if its cause they like sucking on the plants roots (i see them do that often). ive noticed that they dont want to swim in schools like the other fish do and kinda keep to themselves. even at feeding time they dont wanna go where the other fish are eating and i have to throw their flakes on the opposite side. they dont really seem weak to me though. cause when i see them there i usually move the plants away a little to see if they ok and then they swim away quite quickly. the one panda is acting quite strange though, yesterday when i was sitting at the pond and he was doing something quite weird. he would swiftly swim to the bottom of the pond and then swim up again to the surface quickly in a twirl up motion. i dont think im explaining this 2 well  Undecided its a bit hard to put it in words. hmm, how can i explain this... um, like when u spin around in a circle and then feel disorientated. well kinda that type of motion. and he kept doing it over and over and over. i found it quite amusing but now that i think about it, maybe theres a problem.

ill definitely make a plan to get stuff to raise the KH and those things the pet shop told me to buy as mentioned in previous post. i want to get the pond water tested anyway for some other things. theres a nursery near me that has a koi fish section where u can take ur pond water to be tested at a lab. they sell goldfish 2, so maybe they'll be able to help me out there aswell.

oh and i noticed 2 of the fish that died [not on the same day, like 2 days apart or so] had like green algae on the outside of their mouths. i thought they might have gotten some of the plant or root pieces stuck in their mouths or lungs, so i opened their mouths to check if i can see anything but there was nothing there. just on the outside of their mouths. donno if thats something i should be alert for and if the algae might have clung on there during the night when the dead fish was floating on the surface.

i discovered 2 large brown frogs in there aswell while i was cleaning the pond out [when all the trouble stated] is it possible that they could have left some harmful bacteria or something in the pond aswell? they not there anymore though, they left the day after i cleaned the pond.

yeah i wont make that mistake with my baby goldfish again. ignorance is a bad thing. ill rather keep them in a tank or another pond 2 grow a little bigger next time. i did have 1 huge koi fish in my pond before i decided to put them in but i gave him away to one of the pet shops cause i was afraid he might accidentally swallow them cause he has a huge mouth. it seems i might have misjudged my other goldfish though. but now i know.

as for the water temperature, im not sure. but the water isnt freezing cold. like almost lukewarm but a bit colder. the pet shop told me that all the types of fish i chose should be just fine in the outdoor pond cause SA weather stays mostly hot and our winters arent freezing cold like some overseas countries. he only warned me about the pearl scales and said that they are very delicate frail fish and that i should just keep a close eye on them for anything and everything. all of my pearl scales have died, i dont think ill buy them again. i think those are better suited for an indoor concept where u can keep a constant eye on them.

but ill stick a thermometer into the water 2morow and get back 2 u on that one.
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SeaWitch
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Re: HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 07:32:37 PM »

As was explained before, if you have alot of green algae in your tank, especially floating green algae (AKA "green water"), then you really have to be careful about your pH and oxygen levels.  During the day, algae releases oxygen into the water, but at night, it takes oxygen in and releases CO2.  The warmer the water, the more of a problem this becomes, as warmer weater has less oxygen to begin with than colder water does.  Algae also lowers the pH at night.

In my small, 150g stock tank this past summer, I had BAD green water.  I could not even see my fish at all.  I was so worried because the temps in the tank were high and I knew that oxygen was low in the water.  You may want to invest in an aerator to add extra oxygen to the pond.

I, too, use bacteria in my pond and tanks.  I do this when I move the fish outside and bring them back in for the winter.  Bacteria is always good to have on hand.  I have no idea what water clarifier is, and I don't think you need it, but you do need a good water conditioner.  Make sure to get one that removes chlorine and chloramine and try to find one that helps detox some of the toxins in the water.  I'm not sure what you can get over there, but look for Amquel Plus or Prime.

Lastly, you really do need a filter, not just a pump.  It does not have to be anything expensive.  See if you can get a Pondmaster filter.  They are really good and not very expensive at all.  If you REALLY want to help your fish, get a pond filter that has a UV sterilizer on it.  This will take care of any free-floating algae in the pond and make it much cleaner and safer for the fish.  I plan on getting one to use this summer as I cannot go through the green water mess again!
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Yana_Grobb
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Re: HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2010, 06:25:22 AM »

i wanted to test the temp of the water 2day but i can find my thermometer. but i know thats not the problem. the water isnt VERY cold and it isnt warm either.  SA weather somewhat near the ocean coast [where i am] generally stays between 24 and 28 ̊C. so we dont really have extreme changes in temp that could be a shock to the fish. and it was mostly the common goldfish and commets that died. VERY little % of my fancy goldfish. tbh, i am now almost certain its not the temp or a disease but all the other things people mentioned to me. because after fixing most of those things so far, they seem to be getting better.

seawitch i did mention in one of my previous posts that i had a whole fancy expensive filtration system put in yesterday because i did realize that it was needed. i think u might have mislooked the part where i told u guys about it :p lol

donno if u get water clarifier where u guys are cause i see on the bottle its a "proudly south african product" [im just gonna quote what it says on the bottle]:

bio hydro clear provides cleaner, clearer water, less frequent filter and aquarium maintenance as well as healthy and biologically sound aquariums and ponds, by removing ammonia and reducing nitrates as well as removing organic wastes. your pond will experience oxygen depletion after treatment.

- biologically eliminates solid waste and pollution.
- reduces the need for cleaning and removes ammonia, reduces nitrate.
- biodegrades uneaten food.
- keeps water sparkling clean and completely safe.
- rapidly matures new aquariums and pond and decreases sedimentation.
- quickly activates biological filters and maintains biological cycle.
- suitable for freshwater and marine aquariums and ponds.
- beneficial to fish and plants.

i went and bought all kinds of things [some of what u guys mentioned to go look 4] to put in the pond this morning.

and i got a nice surprise this morning when i went to check on my fish and feed them. THERE WASNT A SINGLE DEAD FISH IN THE POND!!  Grin Cheesy Grin thats just made my day! and theres eggs again aswell ^^ so it seems all the advice u guys gave me paid off ^^ thank you guys 4 all ur help! ^^ now that i got to know about alot more things i think my pond will do just fine from now on  Smiley and if i need advice again, i know where to come  Grin

[SMILES ALL THE WAY]
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SeaWitch
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Re: HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2010, 08:23:47 AM »

I'm sorry I missed that about your filtration system.  I run my own GF forum besides coming into this one, so I guess I get the info on the two of them confused.  LOL!  I hope your fish do well for you now!!! Smiley
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Nossie
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Re: HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2010, 11:02:32 AM »

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"the fish will start hovering by the surface, do they?"  O_O  some of them do. ive noticed that especially the panda moors hover at the surface. and some of the fantails. the pandas tend to go hover at the surface between the plants. but i dont know whether they go hide there because they want to get away from the other fish or if its cause they like sucking on the plants roots (i see them do that often). ive noticed that they dont want to swim in schools like the other fish do and kinda keep to themselves. even at feeding time they dont wanna go where the other fish are eating and i have to throw their flakes on the opposite side. they dont really seem weak to me though. cause when i see them there i usually move the plants away a little to see if they ok and then they swim away quite quickly. the one panda is acting quite strange though, yesterday when i was sitting at the pond and he was doing something quite weird. he would swiftly swim to the bottom of the pond and then swim up again to the surface quickly in a twirl up motion. i dont think im explaining this 2 well  Undecided its a bit hard to put it in words. hmm, how can i explain this... um, like when u spin around in a circle and then feel disorientated. well kinda that type of motion. and he kept doing it over and over and over. i found it quite amusing but now that i think about it, maybe theres a problem.

Then it's most probably something with the pH value! One of my fish is doing the exact same thing. Like, he's perfectly alright usually, but sometimes he just stops and hovers like that...

But it's great to hear that no more fish died! Cheesy It might still be good testing your water just in case (:
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Yana_Grobb
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Re: HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2010, 11:49:13 AM »

yeah i also thought it would still be a good idea to have the water tested just in case theres something there that needs a change. one can never be 2 careful  Grin
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Nossie
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Re: HELP NEEDED ASAP!
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2010, 03:55:48 AM »

Of course! It's living beings we're talking about! They need to be taken care of properly to have a long. good life (:
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