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Author Topic: Help with new fish!  (Read 1334 times)
Andrea
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Help with new fish!
« on: October 01, 2010, 10:31:54 PM »

Well as some of you may know I brought a little goldfish yesterday. I have never brought a goldfish from this place as it is somewhat new. But the little old lady selling the fish seemed so passionate and knew what she was talking so I thought all would be good. I fell in love with my Clementine and brought her home yesterday. Now she was acting fine in the shop, one of the most active fish there with no sign of disease that I could see.

Now every since I got her home she has been acting very slow and lethargic. There was a bit of a temperature difference between my tank and there's, as it was a cold day yesterday after days of warm weather and my room is cold especially compared to an air conditioned shop. But I did not add her to the tank straight away, I rested the bag in it for awhile

I tested the water about half an hour ago with ammonia and nitrites at 0, ph at 7.2 and nitrates at 20. Is the problem with the nitrates? I'm so worried. She is currently digging around in the gravel but besides that she has been hanging around the same spot, not exactly resting on the gravel but only just above it.Well not always she has been swimming around a bit but goes back there. Her fins are sometimes clamped which I know isn't a good sign. But I'm not sure what is wrong. The nitrates could be lower but is a level of 20 going to kill a fish?? Or is the fact that there could be something else built up in there as I've just had Sunshine in there for about a year and a half. I did two siphons during the week while there was no fish in there to get the nitrates down from 40 and to get rid of some of Sunshine's poo. But I can still see some of Sunshine's poo in there when Clementine is digging around in the gravel. Could that be a problem?

I just did about a 40% water change and added melafix which I was going to anyway as it recommends to when you get a new fish or a fish has been handled with a net which it was.

Is Clementine just scared or stressed because of the move?? What else can I do?? I was not expecting this and I'm so scared myself Sad

She ate 3 little pellets yesterday but I haven't fed her since. She is swimming around with unclamped fins now just so you know she isn't a 100% like how I described.
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Andrea
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2010, 11:37:10 PM »

Doing better since the water change which was about 2 hours ago now, Clementine is now swimming around more. But I'm still worried.

I nearly forgot to tell you why I named her Clementine. Have you heard of the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind? Well it is amazing and one of my favourite movies so seeing as I have a goldfish called Sunshine and the main female character is named Clementine, it all comes together Cheesy
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Nossie
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2010, 02:52:22 AM »

What a beautiful name Smiley

Anyway, it could be that she was just shocked by the temperature, and other possible differences in water quality. Did you keep the light off the first 24 hours so she could rest on her own?
I think the best thing you could do for her is trying to get the nitrates as low as possible by changing 50-70% of the water Smiley You already started, so please test the water every day and change it whenever it goes above 30-40. If you want to be picky, you could do it already as it reaches 20, since nitrates are immune suppressing. Clean the gravel as much as you can! Waste is definitely not meant to float around when a fish pushes the gravel Wink

But I'm sure she'll only be getting better now after the water change, really! Smiley But it would be great if you added a small dose of salt along with the melafix to the quarantine! It'll lower the osmotic pressure on her and kill of ANY leftover parasites Smiley (If there are any) You should make sure that you feed her something very nutritious while she's there! A lot of live food and peas along with a nutritious staple pellet would be ideal Smiley
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Andrea
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2010, 03:04:22 AM »

Thanks so much Nossie. I might do another siphon, but when would you recommend to do it? Would it too much if I did another one tomorrow? She is acting so much better already Smiley

I will be keeping a very close eye on her and testing the water everyday. Well the light on that tank is actually broken  Undecided So she got the light from outside my window yesterday and because I have the tank in my room, my bedroom light was on occasionally. I tried to leave her alone mainly last night but I couldn't help turning my light on sometimes.

I fed her another three pellets and I think she ate them. I didn't actually see her eat them but I can't see them anywhere so I can only guess she did. I'll move on to vegetables next.

Thanks once again. I'm a little stress ball at the moment, on top of this my dog had an operation last night. Nothing major but she has a bucket on her head and she kept getting up last night. It was like a had two little babies to look after. Well I did, they are all my babies Smiley
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Hanna
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2010, 03:45:14 AM »

WELCOME CLEMENTINE !

Andrea, you doing fine with the waterchanges.
Sure Clementine ( I LOVE HER NAME ) will be fine and she only is a little stressed after the move... just imagining being fished out in a net, put in a plastic bag, then "sloshed around" during transportation, new environment, different water, different , but lovely person to look after her... Wink I am sure she will be right. Do as Nossie already said, I couldn't tell sth different.

Did you get the same food from the pet shop she was fed there with? If not, this may be a good idea to help her over the change. Wink

Post pics soon  Smiley , please
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Andrea
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2010, 06:19:06 AM »

Clementine is acting a bit down again. So I'm going to go get some salt tomorrow. It is aquarium salt I am after isn't it? And how much per litre? Do I just spoon it in? Sorry Embarrassed I've never done it before and I tried searching the forum but couldn't find those specific answers.

I think she is stressed for all the reasons you said Hanna. I didn't get the same food, I was even going to ask them but totally forgot. But she seems to be eating the pellets I have so all is good. I would go ask if she wasn't eating.
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Hanna
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2010, 06:45:02 AM »

I'd get her the food she knows too, as you should feed a varied diet anyway.

Yes, it is aquarium salt for goldfish. Instructions should be on the package according to the tank size.
You add the amount to the fresh water you add while doing the waterchange and dissolve it in there.

The salt I've got is manufactured by ARISTOPET pty ltd
                                                         110 Lavarock Ave
                                                          Eagle Farm, QLD, 4009

for AquaMaster. It is called " Goldfish Water Conditioning Tonic Salts.
It has got a light lemon green colour and it is used to create ideal waterconditions for our goldfish and helps to reduce stress associated with physical damage and osmoregulation. Use 1 rounded per 10 l, it sais.
It does not remove chlorines, etc

But don't add too much, as salt will not evaporate and it is not filtered out by the filter, so additional dosage only with another waterchange, but this should be mentioned on the package too.

Maybe you ask in the petstore how much salt they dissolved in the tank Clementine was in.

Also she may be tired now and wants to sleep. Our fishies go to sleep by 9 pm and wake about 6:30 am. They do rest  somewhen around mid day too.
I am also thinking that she may miss the company she had there with the other fishies.
But I'm sure she'll be right because you are such a great goldfish-mummy
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Andrea
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2010, 07:21:40 AM »

Thanks Hanna. I'll just have to go see what the pet shop has tomorrow. I have to go to a different one to what I brought her from as they are just a little family business, who don't open Sundays and won't be open Monday because it's a public holiday. That also means unfortunately I'll have to wait a few days till I can get the food she is use to, as I have no time Tuesdays or Wednesays.

I did a bit of research on the salt so I feel a bit more confident now. I'll also have a talk with the pet shop people.

It may be a sleeping problem you know. I'm use to Sunshine and she is use to me with my erratic sleeping patterns which also means erratic lights on at different times. Bedroom lights that is, mainly the fish tank light is on during the same period but changes slighty on the weekends. So Clementine might not be use to this changing of lights especially at night. I'll try to be even more careful. She may miss her friends too which makes me real sad Sad Hope her and Sunshine get on and hopefully I can add them sooner than later.
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Hanna
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2010, 07:39:48 AM »

I am very positive that she will get along fine with Sunshine. And it won't be too long until Clementine and Sunshine will be together.
With her food it is not that dramatic that you cannot get it tomorrow, sure you have other pellets and flakes too until you get her (and Sunshine) the food she knows.

I might think about adding her to Sunshine as soon as she behaves normal, not that shy anymore, but before doing it, I'd check the water chemistry in both tanks to make sure it is much the same. ( As you know I had our 5 "aqua puppies" more or less together in one day as I didn't have another choice and all worked well. Of course I watched strongly what was happenening... but nothing happened all went smooth )
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Nossie
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2010, 10:32:10 AM »

To be honest, I don't think you need to go too crazy about getting the same food and the same lighting routines and whatnot, since it doesn't matter that much! At most you should try to get a regular lighting cycle so the fish can rest. And I've got to tell you that especially with goldfish, they don't care even a bit about whether they get a new brand of pellets than they're used to d:

And about water changes, there's no such thing as doing it too often, but as long as the water quality is fine, and the gravel is relatively clean, there's no reason to do them Smiley So just keep an eye on her and it'll be okay Smiley

I honestly have a hard time imagining a goldfish being this stressed! I've never seen mine being stressed, even if the water quality sucked at some point, and the first day I moved them from the transport buckets straight to the new tank, nothing. They started digging in the gravel, nibbling the plants and begging for food after only a few seconds of looking around!
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Andrea
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2010, 08:08:22 PM »

Than what is the problem??  Cry I guess it's the nitrates but is 20ppm deadly?? Sometimes she acts fine and sometimes she isn't. Sunshine acted fine about half an hour after moving into her new tank so I know what you mean Nossie. This is normal for a newbie fish owner and well I'm starting to feel like one all over again. I can tell Clementine is fighting and being tough, so let's all believe in her Smiley
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Hanna
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2010, 08:47:19 PM »

Good Morning Andrea,

I understand your worries, even if Nossie is right, not to panick about the food she knows, I still would get it to give her sth she is familiar with. Sure it is nothing serious, but I believe that fish have a personality like us and some adapt very easy with no problems and some don't. It could be the difference in Nitrate level that she may be not that comfy with, but 20ppm is not deadly. And it also could be that she is by herself now. But sure Clementine will be fine.

I've got a guy here on QLDAF, he is scientist and develops aquarium stuff. I'll post the link in the next post. You may be able to ask him too.
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Hanna
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2010, 08:54:31 PM »

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this are the links and the guys name is Graham. He's a great bloke, we met him and some other people from QLDAF about 3 weeks ago. It was a great, great day.
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Andrea
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2010, 11:20:55 PM »

Everything is falling apart Sad I've done the salt and another siphon for Clementine so it's all I can do for now. She seems slightly brighter but still not 100%, but that is understandable.

But now Sad Well Sunshine has been acting so good since I moved her, like she doesn't have a care in the world except to destroy one of my plants Tongue So I only just did a water test now and the ammonia is 0.50ppm  Shocked Insert extremely bad word!!! I should have been more careful, I know ammonia spikes can happen when adding a fish to a fishless cycle but I swear Sunshine has been acting like her perfect self. I'm not to worried, but I just feel bad and like a bad fish owner! Going to go do a water change now. Nitrites are at 0 and nitrates are at 5.0ppm. Ph is 7.6.

Oh and thanks for the links Hanna Smiley Not sure what else I can ask him though that I haven't already asked you guys and you have answered.
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Hanna
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2010, 12:25:04 AM »

Hey Andrea,
please don't panic now, this is a mini cycle perhaps. Just do your waterchanges and add those beneficial bacteria, like  "Stability" from Seachem to avoid "new tank syndrome"

And please don't say you are a bad fish keeper, this is not true, you are one of the best. At the same time we all are always in a process of learning, so you can ask Graham the same questions, and give him the test results, if you wish. He's a guy who also managed with a friend to breed Neons in captivity.
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Nossie
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2010, 04:14:49 AM »

I totally agree with Hanna Smiley You shouldn't worry, since you know exactly what to do Wink
It's understandable that the ammonia appeared suddenly since the system isn't used to the constant accumulation of waste that a fish excretes, since the fishless cycle had nothing like that Smiley

I bet both will be just fine! Smiley
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Andrea
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2010, 05:04:08 AM »

Silly me, I should have expected and tested the water sooner. I just thank god Sunshine is fine. I did a 50% water change using my siphon and it's like Sunshine went poo mad in this new tank, so much waste! I'll test the water's for both tanks again tomorrow. Clementine is somewhat better, so with the salt I only add more salt when I do a water change and a dosage for the water change not the tank? That's what I did in the first place, as in dosed the water change not the tank.

I also notice Clementine might be a bit constipated so I gave her some peas and I think she ate them. I will keep up with that for a few days.

Thankyou Hanna and Nossie Smiley
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Hanna
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2010, 06:06:17 AM »

LOL. "poo mad" the same here with or 5 waterpuppies. I even fished the poo out with my hand as it was hanging like Xmas garlands on the plants. Maybe I should put them on a 1 day diet. They gobble their food down so quick, I may have lost control how much they need  Undecided and they all accumulate in one corner when I'm in the kitchen as if there is no other room to swim.... like a fish ball with 5 heads, 10 eyes and 5 tailfins and 5 little mouthes always open and close, open and close...
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Andrea
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2010, 02:01:10 AM »

I just don't get this fish Sad I tested the water again and once again ammonia and nitrites 0, ph 7.6 and nitrates either 10 or 20 yet she is still not acting good Sad She eat a bit of a pea yet just sits there, this is not how she acted in the shop and I just feel so bad and desperate. What should I do now?? Another water change? Could someone answer my salt question too in my previous post? Thankyou. I'm stressed to the max!
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Nossie
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2010, 03:11:12 AM »

You should add only a dose for the replacement water when "re-adding" medicine to keep a good concentration c: But of course, first dosage should be for the whole tank, and when it comes to salt, dissolve it in a bucket or a small container of tank water before adding it to the tank, or the salt might burn the fishes' skin.

But... I have no idea what could be wrong with her Huh I had something very similar with some of my fish that even if the water quality is perfect, some were just sitting around in the water! Checked the gills closely and everything, not a sign of disease |: Got a whole lot better in this big tank though! So maybe you should still just keep an eye on her? You're already treating and all. I think you should leave her alone for now, as long as the water's good Smiley Sometimes it's better doing nothing than doing too much! As long as she doesn't get worse Smiley
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Hanna
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2010, 03:45:42 AM »

Hi Andrea,

please, please don't get stressed.  Undecided Yes, do as Nossie said already, maybe leave her for a while, watch her from the "distance".
Your water is perfectly fine and if you added the salt according to instructions so many tea- or table spoons per so many litres it is fine. Don't add any more for now as salt does not evaporate or is not removed with the filter, only with waterchanges.
So in future when you do a waterchange you use only the amount of salt according to the amount of water you change.  Smiley
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Andrea
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2010, 04:45:40 AM »

Well before even reading what you guys I actually really did watch her from a distance. I spied on her while the lights were off and I could just see her and she was swimming around fine. I had fed her two pellets just before hand and sat there in front of her waiting for her to eat them, but she didn't eat them until the lights were off and she was unaware I was watching.

Very strange  Huh I don't think she likes me haha. I'll do what you both said because she is eating and sometimes appears better. I might do another water change later on in the week just to get those nitrates lower, I'll add more salt then. I think I'll move her asap but not too soon because another shock may kill her  Undecided

I know I've said this a million times but thankyou once again, I don't think I could ever thank you all enough Cheesy You have helped me since the first day I came here and I really appreciate it.
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Hanna
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2010, 05:15:05 AM »

Hey BIRTHDAYGIRL, she will get used to you. Seems that she needs a little more time for it, Wink as she is eating and swimming fine when she thinks you cannot see her... she may be a little actor too liking to perform "dramas"  Cheesy

... and look, we're always here to help each other Wink
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Nossie
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2010, 07:06:11 AM »

Maybe she just feels safer in the dark Smiley My Horus was acting very similar the first week or two that I had him Smiley Refused to eat while I was in the room, so I simply left and peeked from the door Wink
Later he got more snuggly, as he got used to my voice and all Smiley
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Andrea
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2010, 01:59:29 AM »

New development. She was acting horrible this morning, it is now nearly 6 pm so about 12 hours later and acting a bit better. But is continously up and down. So I rung the fish shop and gave them all the info and they reckon the ph is too high at 7.6 and if nothing else is wrong well that could be the problem. She said she likes to have goldfish in a ph of 7.2 but I have never focused too much on ph as mine as always been a stable one of about 7.6, sometimes changing to 7.2 (which I guess isn't to stable Tongue). She also said the goldfish was probably kept in a ph of 7.0 but was not sure because I didn't buy the goldfish from there.

So I brought some ph down but I am not sure whether I should use it. Wouldn't it better for Clementine to get use to this ph then me trying to continously get it down and it changing? It may not fluctuate too much but still. Now ph down sounded like a great idea at the time now I dunno. What's your experience with ph? Ever used ph down or up? I'm going to do some research but I also love your opinions Smiley

She eat some more peas today....eventually.
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Andrea
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2010, 02:14:05 AM »

Any info on ph would be appreciated really. It's one of the things I don't know too much about  Undecided
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Nossie
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2010, 02:21:21 AM »

Goldfish don't care for pH as long as they're used to it, there isn't anything being too high pH, up to 8.5 is completely acceptable!

Don't bother lowering it, she will just get another reason to get stressed :/ Could be that she simply wasn't used to a different pH level in the new tank in the first place but is slowly acclimatizing.
And yes, I used something to raise the kH actually, (raising pH at the same time) in the start of my "goldfish career", none of them really cared, but later I came to notice that it's because of high nitrates that the kH and pH were low, and I haven't used it ever since.

*Additional info about pH*
It's generally suitable for goldfish from 7-8.5, and it's a measure of the water's alkalinity, kH (Carbonate hardness) is directly connected to pH. kH is an important parameter, because it keeps the pH value stable, and the kH should ideally be above 10. The higher the better! (But my water has quite low kH, around 4-6, but I've never experienced fluctuations in pH)
The pH naturally drops in the night, but so slightly and so gradually that it's not really worth mentioning. It drops as the plants "reverse" their system, they start consuming oxygen instead of giving it out.
If the pH drops more than 1 degree, the fish can start darting around the tank or in other ways show that they're irritated at the water, they're rubbing themselves at the ornaments, jumping... if you'd let it keep dropping, the fish will gradually become worse, as the acid is burning its skin. The fish will start hovering near the surface, with a milky surface to their skin, some lay on the bottom. If it lowers one more step at this point, it'll lead to death.
I actually haven't found much info about how it is if the pH is too high, but I reckon it's the same.

Now, please continue caring for your fish normally, let her rest and such Smiley
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Andrea
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2010, 04:07:42 AM »

Hmm that's what I thought and it is definitely not 8.5. I imagine it is the fluctuation, I just went and brought one of those ph neutraliser stones. They just sit at the bottom of the tank and slowly dissolve, I don't reckon they make that much of a different so hopefully they will help just that tiny bit. I thought I had one in the tank but it must have all dissolved, oops!

I read that an acidic ph is caused up of a build up of waste while an alkaline one would be caused by too much corals or calcium (something like that). Why would my ph be more alkaline then? It seems it should be the other way round  Undecided Should I do another water change in a few days too? Does it effect ph?
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Hanna
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2010, 06:53:06 AM »

It may affect the pH slightly depending on the pH in the tank and the difference of pH in your tap water.
As pH goes down while Nitrates rise I use a Neutraliser block ever since I noticed that our fishies prefer the neutral pH.
There is also a connection between 2 types of buffers (Alkaline Buffer and Acid Buffer) and General and Carbonate Hardness to release enough CO2 for the plants to use and grow perfectly with less dying plant matter and use up Nitrates. I am about to find out how it works exactly.

For you Andrea at this stage I believe it is important to let Clementine aclimatise but at the same time watch the pH not to get too acidic ( too much below 7 )
Did you test the pH straight  away from the tap water? I know our tap water is very alkalinic, so I always used some pH down to have it about 7.4 like they had it in the pet shop.
Corals and Ca push the pH up, so does shellgrit as it is Ca anyway.

I suggest before you want to do the next waterchange, test the water in Clementines tank and post the results to us. Then we go from there, OK?  Smiley
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Nossie
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Re: Help with new fish!
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2010, 12:06:20 PM »

The pH is more alkaline when there's more calcium in the water, yes, hence the special mineral salts for keeping Malawi or Tanganyika Cichlids Smiley

But I do agree with Hanna, I think it's much better for you if you relax a little bit and not allow your knowledge to worry you Smiley Sometimes like that that when a person knows "too much" about fish diseases and the like, they start seeing all kinds of terrible behaviors in their fish Wink So leave it alone, and just be sure that the water stays good Smiley If the pH won't change, then don't meddle with it.
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