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Author Topic: Hyper goldfish?  (Read 6554 times)
Nossie
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #90 on: October 12, 2011, 03:35:36 PM »

I think so, it's been a while since you got the plant, right? Smiley
It should show on a goldfish in just a few days or so in case it's been attacked by parasites. But since you're keeping the water quality so good, I doubt that Lucky would even get infected!
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #91 on: October 13, 2011, 01:08:27 PM »

Aww thanks Nossie ^_^

We got the plant on Friday last week, my partner stuck it in the tank and when I came home, I found bits of the plant drifting everywhere/blocking the filter, so I took it out, to clean the tank, discovered a snails shell (oddly this one was different to the two I rescued) and left the plant out. So it would have only been in the tank for around 5 hours?

I put it in again on Sunday, but took it out almost immediately as I then discovered the two snails I have now in the tub. The plants been in a jug of water since. So should be okay to add in next Sunday? Or maybe this Sunday?
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Nossie
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #92 on: October 14, 2011, 03:34:54 AM »

I guess you'll see that yourself, you can always try to rinse the plant a little under the tap after you take it from the bucket, then I think it'd be okay Smiley
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #93 on: October 14, 2011, 04:47:19 AM »

Okay, well I'm going to try and add it back in Sunday, I'm pretty sure 5 hours would have been plenty of time for any parasites on the plant to get out into the tank and as Lucky hasn't shown any signs of being ill, it should be okay Smiley

Don't think I'll be getting this plant again though! It's leaves get everywhere XD I only hope Lucky enjoys eating it!

[Edit]

Just done a quick water test, Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrties 0ppm and Nitrates are beginnig to push it a bit, I'd say their around 30ppm or something like that, as the colour is a darker orange than 20ppm but not as red as the 40ppm mark. So I'll leave it till Sunday and will definitley need to do something by then I imagine!

[Update]

Okay so I'm a little worried, I noticed on Lucky's fin earlier before work, veins. Like very thin, very hard to notice red lines, only one or two. Double checked the Nitrates when I got home, to see if it was the water quality. They are still below 40ppm.

I'm going to go ahead and do a water change right now anyway, I know the tank water parameters will be fine for 5/6 days when I go away at Christmas. Right now I'm concerned about her, I'm beginning to wonder if this is what's been bothering her and I've missed it? It's so hard to check because she will not stay still long enough, maybe a water change, with less water in the tank means I can get a good look at her. Hopefully it's nothing...
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 03:03:27 PM by Skwishee » Logged
Nossie
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2011, 03:50:31 AM »

Most fish have visible veins in the tail, especially if the tail has a light color (white or slight yellow-red), as long as she's acting normal, you don't need to worry Smiley
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2011, 04:12:48 AM »

Aww okay, it was just a little random to suddenly notice veins that hadn't been there before. I'll keep an eye on Lucky, she's eating, no clamped fins and doesn't seem lethargic, so hopefully it's nothing!
Maybe I could pick up some medicine tomorrow just in case anyway? If its veins showing up, that usually means a bacterial infection? So maybe it'd be worth grabbing some medicated food?
Maybe get medicine for parasite illnesses as well, while I'm there? What do you guys normally use?
Even though she's fine now, it wouldn't hurt to have some around just in case!

I also gave the filter a quick clean to check for snails and didn't find any, didn't see any during the gravel clean either, so hopefully I got rid of them all now Grin
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 01:11:30 PM by Skwishee » Logged
Nossie
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2011, 03:03:17 AM »

Thing about medications is: They expire.
And they should never be used past the expiration date. Best thing to do would be to just get what you know you need Smiley
I always have salt on hand, natural sea salt or especially made aquarium salt (to treat disease with). I have one kind that is designed to be used as an anti-parasite or -fungus medicine and it can be used along with the anti-bacterial medicine by the same company!
So that way I'm pretty safe Wink And since you live in Europe, maybe they carry it there too??
The salt is called Ectopur and the liquid medicine is called Bactopur, both by SERA Smiley

But do remember, prevention is much better than cure, so usually a water change and some beneficial bacteria will do Smiley
And you did win her on a fair, right? Or how was it? In any case, she might have been carrying something all along, so it could be hard treating it once it would break out. But don't get worried or anything now, just keep it in mind, that it could be the case since she wouldn't be a healthy non-feeder goldfish from the pet shop that you specifically picked Smiley
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2011, 08:24:14 AM »

Yes, Lucky and Star were from a fair, one of the children I work with must have won them as they were left behind at the place where I work, so I adopted them.

Thanks for the tip about the salt, I'll see if the aquarium shop down the road has some or look on the internet Smiley

Lucky seems to be doing okay, she was a little random earlier, but seems to have calmed down now.
I've added the plant back in the tank and also added my weekly stress zyme dose! Water parameters are all fine, so I'll do a mid-week water change on Wednesday as normal Smiley

Managed to get a photo of Luckys tail, but you can't really see the veins. I know there are 3 veins on her tail, so if anymore show up out of no where, then I'll know its a bacterial infection (?). Otherwise she hasn't shown any other symptoms for me to really know if something's going on or not! Hopefully she'll be okay!

Also, I've got a video of her random behaviour, do you remember how we thought perhaps she likes blue? As she spent so much time on one side of the tank staring at the wall paper?
Well it would appear she much prefers the purple towel (recently placed there to catch water that jumps through the grates) and other items at the other side of the tank... Is this behaviour I should accept as normal from her? As it's usaully limited to the side of the tank. Maybe she just really likes looking around?
It will be interesting to see if she continues to do this, once placed in the bigger tank Smiley

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(Password if it asks you as the same as before)
(Also had a few problems while uploading the video, but hopefully it should work!)
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scrivens345
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2011, 11:16:50 AM »

I use tetra easy balance nitrate reducing granules (ion-exchange resin) stabilises pH and KH... just add once a week
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Nossie
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2011, 12:06:46 PM »

Could be, could be. High nitrogen in the water will also cause veins to sort of become more visible, but since you're testing the water regularly and everything's okay then, I don't think there's a problem Smiley

...when I moved my fish to their big home, they somehow got a lot more interested in food, as far as I've seen.
While I kept them in a 10 respectively 8 gallon, some of them (the orandas <3) were the most hungry ones, while none of my fantails cared that much about the food. Nowadays I'm pretty concerned they might just jump out of the feeding hole xD Happens often that they splash water allover my hand and unfed food D:
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #100 on: October 17, 2011, 03:57:15 AM »

Haha it sounds like your fish make such a mess!

Lucky is such a delicate eater XD She'll swim up take the flake from my finger and chew it, then nibble my finger to make sure she's gotten all of it. Even when I've had brocolli in the tank, I never notice any of it in the gravel when I've been cleaning. I think Lucky just eats everything in site and doesn't let it go to waste!

I imagine if Lucky was in a tank with more fish though, it'd probably be a different story Wink

As for her tail, in the photo if you look real close (I just noticed) you can just about see two of the veins, the one at the bottom has an odd angle to it and the one on top is fairly straight. I've checked her over and no more have appeared as of yet.
My only real concern is that she has something like septicaemia, as it's not the water quality and I'm still not 100% sure if its her natural colouration or something harmless that's caused the veins to appear.

Of course, it won't do any good if I start chucking medication in there, without a real idea of what's going on.
I guess just keep doing what I've been doing and if anything more shows up, then I'll know!

Thanks guys Cheesy
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 03:59:20 AM by Skwishee » Logged
Nossie
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #101 on: October 17, 2011, 09:15:46 AM »

She'd definitely show you if she's sick Smiley
You'd notice if she'd start acting tired and uninterested pretty easily since you seem to spend a lot of time watching her, that's a really good thing. Get to know how the fish eat and move and you'll notice right away if something's wrong! Smiley

Gonna toss in some delicious snack to my babies now! Cheesy
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #102 on: October 17, 2011, 03:13:19 PM »

Haha aww ^_^ I must admit seeing fantails in pet shops, makes me want a second tank to have some! They are so cute!
I love how when they swim it's like a little wiggle Cheesy If only I had all the money in the word  Roll Eyes

Well with observing her I'm quite fortunate that my work is only part time at the moment, so I'm about most mornings and weekends, so I sit on the bed with my laptop/artwork and just watch her, or occasionally glance up ya know? Check out what she's doing, I guess it's a habit now, since I started obsering her more when she was flashing.
It's how I've noticed alot of things really Smiley She's been so laid back today, I'm beginning to think the right hand side of the tank is her favourite place, she spends alot of time there, occasionally swims about to nibble at the gravel or plant. It's interesting how she's swapped sides in a way, before she'd spend alot of time on the other side of the tank Smiley

If a fish is showing lethargy, what kind of behaviour is that? When they sit in the corner and don't do alot? Or say, stay near the bottom of the tank?

I only ask because when I have been watching her, she's seemed quite calm, but I think maybe thats because I'm so used to her slight erratic behaviour when she goes crazy checking out the view Wink

Thanks for all your help Nossie, I've learnt so much in the past month! I really appreciate it, especially when I must seem like the most hypochondriac fish owner ever!
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Nossie
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #103 on: October 18, 2011, 03:17:56 AM »

Lethargic basically means tired, so they usually just sit around and breathe pretty slowly, they also tend to let the tail and fins droop. A healthy fish always keeps the fins extended Smiley (Except when they're speeding forward, the dorsal fin tends to go down a little bit Wink)

Been there done that!! xD Believe me, I've had my streak of nervous fish-keeping as well xD
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #104 on: October 20, 2011, 04:40:39 AM »

Thanks Nossie, I'll be sure to keep an eye out for behaviour like that. Other wise Lucky seems to be doing fine.

No more veins have appeared in her tail, but do you think maybe the one's that have shown up are a sign of haemorrhaging?

Also do you remember I previously mentioned suspicions of a darker patch on Lucky's under belly?

I saw it yesterday! She swam up wards, right in front of me when I was checking her over and there it was Cheesy Wasn't the light after all! It's only a very pale brown patch, near her pelvic fins. It was around a month ago I first noticed it, so would it just be her natural colouration? I feel that if it was an infection of some sort, I'd know about it by now?

Also, as it is getting colder, it's not quite cold enough to have the heating in the house on, but I've noticed the temperature in Lucky's tank has gone down, it was around 20C/69F degrees but its now dropped to below 19C/62F.
I've heard people mention (from researching about ponds) that there is a temperature where you stop feeding them?  I don't imagine the tank will reach that point as I'm sure the heating will be on by then, but thought I'd ask just in case!
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 04:54:25 AM by Skwishee » Logged
Nossie
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #105 on: October 20, 2011, 10:15:30 AM »

The fish will stop moving around much about the time when you should stop feeding them, if I remember correctly, that shouldn't happen until roughly 15 degrees or less I think Smiley
But there's rarely any reason to follow the same feeding schedules in an aquarium as in a pond since the temperature for sure won't drop as much.

A darker patch shouldn't be anything to worry about, that can only be two things, neither particularly harmful, a healing skin burn/damage, or simply a natural (but weird) spot Smiley My Horus had like, this big mole-looking patch on his belly as well, really charming Smiley
If the spot would be red and spreading on the other hand, there would be little left to do. That would mean an internal bacterial infection, it usually comes with a bloated and mis-shaped kind of look. One of my baby orandas got that last year... :'/ (The one that had been separated with the carp)

I honestly don't know for sure about the veins, the only fish I've seen with that around here is our white fantail that's living in the community tank at my parents' house, and he's had these showing for a long time already but has been the perkiest fish in the tank for years Smiley
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #106 on: October 20, 2011, 05:06:51 PM »

Ah okay  Cheesy Thanks for the tip on the temperature!

I was doing research and found that fish can sometimes (harmlessly) haemorrhage, but that this within itself can sometimes cause other illnesses, so I thought I might look for something to help her out, just so it doesn't turn into anything harmful! The FAQ I was reading on wetwebmedia mentioned some medications can help with it? I forget its name... something that can be absorbed through the fishes skin? If thats even possible? Did it begin with a K? I'll try and find the article again if I can....
I'll research a bit more about it and see what I can find out!

I also think you're right about the spot, I'm pretty sure it's like a smooth little rectangle across her tummy (from the glimpse I had of it) so definitley not any louse's hanging around! And as it hasn't spread to anywhere else on her body in a month, I just think it's how she is.

Yesterday was the first time I've seen it properly, as she doesn't swim upwards all that often. I'd be tempted to pick her up and check it out, just to be safe, but I don't want to stress her out by doing that!
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Nossie
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #107 on: October 21, 2011, 02:40:48 AM »

Only medicine I'd advice you to add at this point would be Melafix, if you can find that. Or, the super water conditioner I keep recommending here Cheesy (fluid bio filter media by Easy Life)

I'm pretty sure that whichever medicine you found (unless you can post a link to that here) would be very harmful to your filter bacteria, and then you'd have to start over again with the stressed fish and the 10 million water changes :/
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #108 on: October 21, 2011, 04:34:53 AM »

Ah ha, it was Kanacyn, potentially also called Kanamycin or Kanamycin Sulfate/Sulphate. The same guy also recommends using Mardel medicines, if un sure about the Kanacyn.

The FAQ I was reading had this response
"I suggest you look at more towards the medicine side of things. Kanacyn which is a Wide Range antibiotic that is easily absorbed thru the skin. It treats hemorrhaging, red body patches, fin and tail rot, scale loss, dropsy, body ulcers, inflamed gills, tuberculosis, and general bacterial problems."

and also to another question;
"If you don't want to go with such a wide range antibiotic, then Aquatronics also has Nitrofuran-G which is specifically designed for hemorrhaging and red streaks, fin and tail deterioration, open sores, as well as general bacterial infections and gill diseases."

And this is all I can seem to find, it would appear Kanacyn is hard to find
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Mardel medications... is that the Maracyn I've seen mentioned around here? This stuff;
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Also checking out that melafix, I think pimafix is more along the lines of what I'd need as it mentions internal infections
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How do the two medications work? Melafix and Pimafix? They seem to be quite a general medicine, I don't understand how one bottle can treat so much XD (Also do they last long in terms of expiration dates?)

I'm a little hesitant about dumping medicine in there, but more concerned at the same time, that if she is haemorrhaging it could lead to something else Undecided
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 04:51:39 AM by Skwishee » Logged
Nossie
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #109 on: October 23, 2011, 01:27:11 PM »

A "wide range antibiotic" is something I call a "Shotgun treatment" Wink It can treat a lot of different disease, but it's not always a good thing to use if you don't see any obvious signs of illness. Otherwise it sounds like a great thing to keep in stock! You never know when your fish might come down with dropsy or something like that, so remember the name!

Melafix and Pimafix are both basically tea tree oil, Melafix supposedly treats bacterial disease and Pimafix for fungal infections. Neither of these have been 100% tested before they were marketed and sold, so many people have had their fish die when trying to treat for instance, more serious cases of fungus or fin rot. On the other hand, many find them very useful when just helping the fish heal small wounds, like lost scales or torn fins Smiley

So definitely use Melafix instead, tea tree oil is something many people use to heal all kinds of wounds (for example troubled or irritated piercings) and some old school aquarists use it on their fish as a bath treatment Smiley
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #110 on: October 23, 2011, 03:22:09 PM »

Ah thanks Noss!

Lucky's been fine, it's been almost 10 days now and no more veins have appeared, I just wish I knew why they were there. Hence I was thinking the pimafix would help as it supposedly deals with internal infections (from what I've read that can be a cause of blood veins appearing).

The veins appearance is still a bit of a mystery though....
Hmmmmm..... I would ask at the local aquarium shop, but I'm worried they'll try and sell me something I don't need XD I don't trust sales people! XD I might try and pick up both melafix and pimafix if they aren't too expensive.

Well off to more research!
So far all the stuff I've found out about veins in a fish tails appearing, doesn't apply to Lucky's situation *sigh*
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 03:50:38 PM by Skwishee » Logged
Nossie
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #111 on: October 24, 2011, 12:27:47 PM »

I know, it's usually pretty hard to find the right info online or in books about this D:
Best thing to do is to ask at a forum. You could try signing up on a bigger one and ask there too? Smiley
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #112 on: October 24, 2011, 12:54:09 PM »

I e-mailed the people at WetWebMedia, they seem to have lots of experienced people on hand and they said this to me;

The red veins in the fins are likely congested blood vessels,
caused by a build-up of bacteria in the blood vessels slowing down the flow
of blood. This is a classic symptom of impending Finrot, and needs to be
fixed quickly. At this point a mild antibacterial like Melafix might well
have some use, but the bigger picture is that something is "wrong" with
this fish's world. You're aware that the size of the aquarium is one
factor, and water quality is another (do be open minded about water quality
even if your most recent tests suggested zero ammonia and nitrite -- try
again, an hour or two after feeding). Cheers, Neale.

So I've tested the water, fed her and will test the water again in 2 hours, I don't see how there will be any difference, but you never know...

I am also registered with another forum (that I've yet to post in), so I'll ask there too...
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Ron H
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #113 on: October 25, 2011, 12:32:21 AM »

Thanks for posting the answer you got Skwishee, I learnt something from it... "Impending finrot" doesn't sound good, in fact if you say it slowly in a deep loud voice it sounds even worse, (sorry thats a bit insensitive, got carried away there)... all the best for Lucky. cheers
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #114 on: October 25, 2011, 03:09:15 AM »

It's okay Ron Wink

I replied to them yesterday about what's best to do... and well... I'll just post what I sent and highlight their answers;

Thank you for your quick response!
I have tested the water before and 2 hours after feeding Lucky, with the
following results:
Before- Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrirtes 0ppm, Nitrates 5 ppm.
2 hours 30 minutes later - Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrties 0ppm, Nitrates 5ppm

So no change there... Which I kind of expected as I hand feed her fish flakes, so un-eaten food is minimal and I regularly give her veg; brocolli, carrots and peas (again I hand feed or simply put on the veggie clip, so not very much is left in the tank).

She's been okay, acting up a little this evening, swimming up into the filter current, swimming a little erratically, so I know there's something bothering her.
I am intending to get some Melafix this weekend, to help her out. But this still doesn't signify the cause to this problem.
<And may never be known precisely. Finrot is opportunistic, and the
bacteria are present in all tanks, they just don't normally cause any harm.
When Finrot does start, you need to be open minded about the various things
that might have been the trigger.>


I've been thinking that perhaps this illness has been brought on due to the stress she had when the Nitrites spiked (she displayed flashing behaviour during this period). Could it be a potential trigger?
<Yes.>

The only other possibility I can think of is a plant I brought at the beginning of October (7th to be precise!). What happened is that the plant was added immediately to the tank, but 5 hours later when I arrived home, I removed it due to snails, had the plant in a salt bath and quarantined it for a week, it was then added back into the tank on the 12th. Then 2 days later (on the 14th) was when I first noticed the veins in her tail.
But I wonder if the plant was to blame, surely she would have shown symptoms sooner, as the plant was in the tank for 5 hours?
<Don't think this is related.>
That would have been plenty of time for bacteria to affect her and symptoms would have shown up during the plants quarantine period?Or unless it's the tank's size, causing this?
<Yes, very likely.>
Or the last possible explanation, Lucky was a fish won at a fair (the child who won her left her behind where I work, so I adopted her and Star -who is sadly no longer with us-) so it could be that she's been carrying something all along, as you never know what conditions she was kept in before I got her?
<Quite so.>
Do you think if I treat with melafix (following the label of course) and then just keep a close eye on her until I can move her to the bigger tank when I get it?
<Should help, though it isn't a medication I recommend or trust. In the UK,
eSHa 2000 is an infinitely better, and better value, product. Treats Finrot
and Fungus, and doesn't seem to stress fish or filter bacteria.>


Of course if any other symptoms occur to treat them accordingly, but right now there doesn't seem to be a lot I can do =/

I must admit fin rot did cross my mind, but because all 3 of the veins are towards the base of her tail, near her body, I didn't think it would be that as a lot of what I've read with regards to fin rot state that the edges of the fins are affected?
<Ah, that's confusing two things. Yes, erosion (i.e., decay) of fin
membranes happens from the edges inwards. But the congested blood vessels
can be anywhere on the fin.>


But I was suspecting it was bacteria at work here... just not sure which one!
<That's the tricky part.>
Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it, I just want to do the best
for little Lucky!

<Glad to help, and good luck, Neale.>

So what I'm hoping, is getting some treatment Friday, then hoping for the best, I may never know what has caused this, but I am sure as heck going to fix it!

Currently the people on the other forum, think it may be copper in the water, that the de-chlorination isn't getting rid off.....
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 03:31:12 AM by Skwishee » Logged
fantailer
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #115 on: October 25, 2011, 05:59:37 AM »

Omg my post feels tiny!
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Nossie
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #116 on: October 26, 2011, 07:03:17 AM »

Ron: That cracked me up! Karma to you! Cheesy

Skwishee: I think there are ways to test the water for copper... did you ask anyone about it on the forum?
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #117 on: October 26, 2011, 12:56:13 PM »

The guy just said to run the tap for 3 minutes or so and this apparently clears any high levels of copper that may/may not be present, so I let the tap run for a bit, before sticking water in buckets for the water change this morning.

They've so far advised getting Maracyn and generally being prepared, not to medicate right now, as it's not really clear what's going on. They also said Melafix doesn't do anything, that pristine water won't do.
But to have Maracyn on hand, as symptoms may get worse or it may heal on its own. And that with just 3 veins, I shouldn't bother doing anything, only to step in if more redness shows (I was pretty sure I saw some redness on the base of her dorsal fin, but wasn't sure because of the lighting and it was hard to see as it was on the part of her 'spike' which you guys know is quite small).

They've said that if she's a strong healthy fish, then bacteria won't really take over and if she shows any more symptoms within her behaviour to assume parasites.

Someone else said Lucky could have injured herself (on what.. I have no clue! There's hardly anything in the tank XD).
Then mentioning to treat any new fish for flukes, I think their suggesting she may have that? I have no idea why they'd mention that, I'm obviously not going to stick anything else in there!

I'm very tired from work, so this is all a little confusing right now! But they are being very nice and asking me to keep them updated.

I think I'll do my water change now and try and check Lucky over Friday in the day light, it's difficult to look at her properly in artificial light, see if anything more has appeared and I suppose, take it from there.

Thanks for all the support guys, I shall endeavour to do what I can for little Lucky!
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 12:58:49 PM by Skwishee » Logged
Ron H
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #118 on: October 27, 2011, 05:17:18 AM »

cheers Nossie, sometimes my humor is a little dark, and Skwishee are your water pipes old or new, I would be interested to know, sometimes there can be oxidisation in the hot water pipes that may cause copper in the water, all the best for Lucky. Cheers
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Skwishee
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Re: Hyper goldfish?
« Reply #119 on: October 27, 2011, 11:55:41 AM »

I use the cold water (not the hot water) for Lucky's tank, as for the age of the pipes? I'd honestly have no idea, as I don't own the property XD
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