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Author Topic: itch staying  (Read 1558 times)
Flash
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itch staying
« on: June 25, 2010, 04:58:37 PM »

HI
we have 4 fishes: a black moor, gobi, oranda and a 'goldfish' (Flash-ha-haa.)

when we got our tank we did all the stuff and let it settle for a week or so with the filter circulating the water, the end of May we added a black moor and Flash. after a week or so we noticed the black moor was not himself and through this forum i 'diagnosed' itch, we bought the white spot treatment and applied as per instructions,  subsequently the black moor died.

following that we replaced with another black moor - who just decided not to eat and gave up the ghost too in a couple of days.

we now have added the new black moor, an oranda and a gobi. the oranda is not well - spending most of the time on bottom and showing the signs the first black moor had, and also the new black moor has signs of itch, however this times it looks more like a sheen, then individual spots but it moves his tail as if it was itching.

we have continued to treat for itch however my partner thinks he read somewhere that the treatment only treats the tank not the infected fishes. is this so?

how can we treat the fishes as well?

any advice muchly welcome as we feel at a bit of a loss
thanks
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Flash
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2010, 05:03:06 PM »

one more think, all description of itch it says the infected fish will continuously scratch themselves, but non of our fishes did or are doing that - they just become sluggish...

thought this might help...

thanks,
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creamkiller
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2010, 08:25:26 PM »

hi

1st test your water get a good kit and test it. try use primafix and metafix is your tank cycled . and i think gobies are saltwater. one of use must have the wrong name

do u have any carbon in your filter
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Mindemae
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2010, 09:17:05 PM »

Ok, how big is your tank?
And like Cream Killer says test your water!
If your fish are continously getting an ICH (not itch) outbreak then I'm suspecting that you may have a water quality problem.  Maybe overcrowding, or not enough filtration, aeration etc.
If the fish doesn't have small grains of sugar specks on him then that is not ich.
It might be something else.  If all the fish are infected, and your water quality (ammonia, nitrites, ph and nitrates) is good then I would take out the carbon and add to your tank, 1 TBS of salt to every 5 gallons of water and Melafix and Pimafix according to the bottles directions. Good Luck! Smiley
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Katarine
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2010, 10:46:07 PM »

It's Ich. Not to, you know, be a spell freak, but it's ich (or ick)

Smiley
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Nicole
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2010, 12:48:36 AM »

Yeah, itching (or flashing, as it is sometimes called) can be a symptom of parasites as well.  If you see any moving or threadlike spots, that might be it.
Everyone else is right- if Fishie has no specks, they're probably all right.  Sometimes it takes a bit for the organisms in the tank to die, so keep an eye on your fishies and don't bring in any new ones.  Ich is stubborn, but it is very treatable.  And do keep an eye on your water chemistry in case you accidentally kill some of the good bacteria.
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Flash
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2010, 01:53:04 AM »

thank you all.
when the first blackmoor died, the water was tested by the pet store and said it was ok, but maybe we should get a testing kit of our own?
 what/where (in uk or online) could i get one?

will pass or you great info to hubby.

thanks for spelling lesson...  Grin

oh, the oranda died last night...
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Hanna
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2010, 04:19:19 AM »

We do have our own test kit, I NEVER trust testresults done by a store... maybe because my first profession is in clinical chemistry, lol. I trust my own test results.

So my advice is: get your own testkit, preferable the liquid one, NOT dry chemistry. There are those master test kits for Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite and pH.
Normally you get those tests at the petstore.
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Nossie
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2010, 04:38:00 AM »

You should absolutely get yourself a water test kit, you should be able to buy them at any pet store, either as a set with pH, nitrite, nitrate and ammonia, or you can buy them one and one.
And know that most infections and parasites are breaking out when water quality problems are present. So whenever your fish are acting strange/different, the first thing you should do is to test the water, and if the water's fine, you should start looking for visible symptoms. Such as behavioral symptoms, or physical marks on the skin, wounds... you know that stuff Wink

But about your moor, I'd say that if there's a "film" of sorts covering him, he might just have velvet disease, which is quite common for moors, but if it looks like he's got an extra thick layer of mucus on himself, it could be either parasites or problems with the water quality.

Either way, I'd want some updates on the conditions of your fish, if possible Smiley
Sorry about the oranda :'C (and the other losses)
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Katarine
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2010, 05:01:14 PM »

Im sorry to hear about your loss.. Sad

I strongly reccommend you to gety a watery test kit. with that you can prevent any future losses
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Flash
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2010, 05:22:47 PM »

thanks the replies guys.

Blackie (the Moor) is in a containment 'tank' however he does not look well at all, the tail is like dissolving.

however the thing that puzzle me is that the gobi and the other goldfish (might be a fan tail?) are fine....

b/f still believes the pet store test is alright however i will get one next time shop open and me not working (monday)  Sad


on a different note - my pets (bees) were really  Angry tonight - any advice for that?? Huh

Hanna: any chance you could recommend one? i.e. send me a link - sorry but have no idea about fishes - not my thing but hate to see them just dying...

Nossie: looking into velvet disease - does not look like extra mucus more like a layer of trapped air f that makes sense?

thanks again, will update tomorrow.
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Katarine
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2010, 05:25:44 PM »

I really dislike bees, so no, I have no advice for beekeeping. except ward them off with smoke and not fire. Fire makes them REALLY angry.

Hope all goes well. If the tail is dissolving Ima say tailrot. aquarium salt treatment and some fungus clear should clear that up nicely (or melafix! THE MIRACLE DRUG!)
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Mindemae
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2010, 06:15:38 PM »

Sounds like fin rot to me.  Alot of times it starts in the tail.
Your fish will need an oral antibiotic and maybe stronger medication than melafix.
If you have aquarium salt treat with that and the melafixfor now.  The sooner the better, since this will kill rather quickly.
get an oral antibiotic and I use something called Rid-Ich+.
It is stronger medication and works wonders on fin rot, ich parasites and all kinds of bacteria.
You want to treat orally too tho.  Your fish won't look good for awhile but the fins do grow back.
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Hanna
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2010, 06:22:05 PM »

Hi Flash,

for a testkit I do recommend the API-MasterTestKit, it is not that cheap, but a very fair price considering the ammounts of tests you can do with it. BUT IT IS MUCH CHEAPER THAN BUYING ALL SINGLE TESTS.  It contains solutions for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH normal range and pH high range, 4 Test tubes with caps and an information booklet and colour cards for reading the test results. Very easy to do.

According to the illness, if it is not ick but a fungal infection you should treat like it already was mentioned with salt, Pimafix and Melafix according to instructions given.
If this doesn't work, then there is the "shotgun" method , like Nossie calls it, with Malachite Green, Methylene Blue and Acriflavine. This is a Multicure from VitaPet. It also sais it treats white spot (ick/ich). But it destroys the beneficial bacteria too, so you will need to add that one to your filter media after treatment. Two other good products by API: StressZyme and StressCoat.

According to your bees: Is there a chance that there might be a 2nd Queen growing and they form a 2nd population? You may invest in more beehives?

Hope this helps & Hope your fishies will get healthy!
Very sad to hear of your past losses  Sad
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Andrea
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2010, 02:16:04 AM »

Some people die from the flu yet millions (?) of people get it every year and survive it, this would be the same with fish. Some stronger and older fish will be able to survive bad water conditions better than a fish you just brought which most likely would be young and in shock due to moving around. Therefore making it weak.

I agree with Mindamae that it sounds like fin rot aswell which can be treated with melafix. But it won't work unless you sort your water out first so as the others have said go get your water tested.

Best of luck with Blackie.
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Flash
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2010, 02:54:10 AM »

ok, decided will 'skive' off at lunchtime and get a water test kit. hope local pets at home have it (I am in Wales)

sort water out then get more fishes. only thing that 'worries' me is that flash when was alone was very miserable... and the gobi seems to just hang by the filter and be there... not much social skills!

Blacky the 2nd has gone over night as we expected.

thanks again for the help and advice!

Hanna: no second queen as they just arrived as new nuc but i guess after being locfked into a box and shuffled on country lane for good few myles, I would be  Angry myself! tackling the girls tonight again.

ok, got a job to go to.
ciao peeps!
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Flash
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2010, 02:56:19 AM »

just googled 'API-MasterTestKit' and all result say it it for salt-water fish... which is not what we have...
am i getting this wrong?
ta!
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nabi
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2010, 03:47:33 AM »

Api makes different versions for both freshwater and saltwater.

Here's a link to a freshwater test kit on Amazon.com 

(Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)

says you can do around 800 tests with the kit.  A liquid test kit like this is more accurate than one that uses paper test strips.
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Mindemae
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2010, 10:49:58 AM »

Thank you Nabi! Smiley
Good idea posting a picture so people can see what kind of test kit we are talking about so much! Wink
If local petshops don't carry some of the medications we suggest, like Melafix, then i'm sure they can get that online too like places like Amazon. Cheesy
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Flash
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2010, 12:59:31 PM »

thnaks guys! the event at work was mad, the bees heaving so did not get chance to get testing kit, but i will not on amazon thanks to nabi  Wink

also came back with 2 new fishes: Blackie the Third and RedHead - (oranda) but we discovered Flash is a bit of a bully and pecked at Blackie to his heart content.... never done that before...

off to get the testing thing

ttfn, Flash
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Flash
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2010, 01:05:44 PM »

thanks! done.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 01:07:58 PM by Flash » Logged
Mindemae
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2010, 01:17:41 PM »

I don't understand why you would get two new fishes when you haven't even tested your water? Undecided
Maybe that older oranda is trying to tell you something!
AND you really should quarantine any new fish you get for at least 2 weeks.  You need to make sure your water is in pristine condition before introducing new fish to it, testing the water before and after putting in the new fish.
Just going and buying new fish and dumping them in a tank you've been having problems with is not a good idea! Angry
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Flash
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2010, 01:30:21 PM »

that is exactly my view but fishes are the hubby's. so he wants more fishes, i will get the water tested once the kit arrives.
agree with you mindemae!
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Hanna
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2010, 05:19:45 PM »

Hope all goes well with the new fishies in the tank, without keeping them in quarantine.

Also hope that you know at least 10 gal per goldfish, so please let your hubby know that overstocking is no fun for the fishies and no fun for you if you have to deal with illnesses all the time
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Clab
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2010, 07:35:03 AM »

I see that someone wrote about salt treatment in the tank, i think its better to treat with salt in another tank - cuz if you have to treat for white spots, then the fish dies if there are salt in the water.
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Nossie
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2010, 08:28:51 AM »

Flash: So tell your husband that it's a very bad idea to be getting new fish while the "old" ones are being sick and when you still don't know how the water is... And like Mindemae said, ANY NEW FISH NEED QUARANTINE FOR 2 WEEKS MINIMUM. I keep mine 3 weeks, always. In a weak salt treatment to kill off parasites and possible fungus and the like. (Sometimes I add bacterial med too)

Clab: The fish shouldn't die from salt in the water o_O It's a remedy that's been used for years and years to treat for all kinds of fish disease. And it also works as a kind of tonic for the fish, relieving the pressure on them when they're sick, or during nitrite spikes. So what do you mean, if I may ask?
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Clab
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2010, 10:02:43 AM »

I cant seem to find a tekst in english, but the Koi owners and dealers i have talked to, says that using salt in the pond, eliminates the use of Formalin and Malachite Green, for treating for white spots.

Here is a good article for white spot in general :  (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)

il see if i can find something else about the salt  Wink
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Clab
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2010, 10:10:19 AM »

Formalin and salt do not mix, and this combination will make your fish even sicker than they were before. This is often true for other anti-parasite meds, so always research before mixing anything in the water.

Its the formalin..
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Mindemae
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2010, 11:42:57 AM »

Ok, the Rid-Ich+ does contain Formalin but it also contains salt.  I did use aquarium salt with it with fantastic results and no casualties so I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that.  I used the standard 1 TBS aquarium salt per 5 gallons of water.
Could it be if you would use table salt? Which you should never use since some of the binders in table salt are toxic to fish.
There are no warnings on the bottle for not using aquarium salt with this product! Smiley
Also, I wanted to add that Rid-Ich+ is safe for FRESHWATER as well as SALTWATER.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 11:54:43 AM by Mindemae » Logged
Clab
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Re: itch staying
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2010, 11:49:25 AM »

i'm no expert - so i just listen to the experts  Wink

The combination of formalin and salt strip the fish not only from its Cuticle ( consisting of mucus, antibodies and lysozymos) but also of the Epidermis ( Malpighain cells) and Goblet Cells ( mucus secreting) which leave the fish unprotected to infections, sometime called as skin burn. Also damaging the gils.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 12:09:58 PM by Clab » Logged
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