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Author Topic: My poorly shubunkin  (Read 1604 times)
Vicloz2006
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My poorly shubunkin
« on: December 10, 2011, 09:40:23 PM »

I have a shubunkin (worf) and he has developed clear lumps one on each gill one above his left eye and one under his chin! He is in an indoor tank bout 25 gal, with two other fish and two butterfly fish. The tank has a pump and a light, the tank I had before did not have a light and he was on his own! The tank has been running for about two months now! I haven't changed the water yet, could this be the problem? He has had this about a week now and my comet (flash) has now developed a White spot on his left eye. Have they been fighting or is it some sort of infection? If it is an infection what should I do to help him? I am really worried I only got a bigger tank for worf and the other fish to keep him company as he looked lonely! Please help me! I know to some he is just a fish but to me he is important and a member of my family!  Cry
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Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2011, 09:48:25 PM »

If you need pictures I will try and get some and post them on request!
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Skwishee
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2011, 07:21:26 AM »

Okay by the sounds of it, this problem could have been caused by over stocking and/or poor water quality.

When you keep goldfish, as they are messy creatures, so you will need to be doing a partial water change on a weekly basis! So when you can I would suggest doing a water change immediately and remember to use water conditioner Wink

Did you cycle the tank before adding the fish? And are you able to check your waters condition either by taking a sample to a pet shop (they will usually test water for free) or getting a water test kit and doing it yourself at home?
When a tank is cycling, there are harmful toxins in the water, so when kept in a small tank this is even more concentrated and can sometimes cause illness and/or death in fish.

Now with the overstocking... when you stock goldfish, depending on what type you have, depends on the stocking levels, as they differ for fancy and single tailed goldfish. As you have a Shubunkin and Comet, these guys are single tailed, they need lots of space to swim around in and can grow pretty big, usually around 10 - 12 inches. The chart below will help give you an idea of their growth.

[image]


Now I wouldn't say this chart is immensely accurate, but it helps give you the idea. As individual goldfish will have different growth, for example my common goldfish has grown an inch in about 3 months, something that the chart says should take 6 Wink

So keeping the animals growth and movement in mind, I use the stocking rules for single tailed goldfish of 40 gallons for the first fish and then 12 gallons for each additional fish. So for the two goldfish you have, you would need a 62 gallon tank.

I am also rather confused how you've got butterfly fish in there? Aren't butterfly fish salt water animals? Also what are the other two fish?

Photos would be useful, to get a better idea of what's going on. What type of white spot is it? Does it look like the fish have been sprinkled with salt, so white spots are all over the body, or is it just localised around the face?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 07:23:55 AM by Skwishee » Logged
Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2011, 07:45:03 AM »

The butterfly fish are small algea eaters! I have two shubunkin and one comet. The lumps more clear than White really. The ones on the gills have shrunk and seem to be going but the one on his chin has only just appeared! I have treated the tank but this other one lump has appeared in the last two days and flashes eye happened last night! It actually looks like a scratch. I will get the water tested as I am going through on Monday!
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scrivens345
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2011, 11:39:05 AM »

Just in case it is Ich ( often triggered by poor water quality) , have a look at this article  (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)

Below is a comprehensive guide to diagnosis & treatment of disease
(Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 12:06:44 PM by scrivens345 » Logged
Goldiegirl
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2011, 01:37:51 PM »

Not changing the water is a HUGE problem. You should be doing 50% weekly to avoid the accumulation of harmful byproducts in the water. Not doing so, your water probably has a dangerous concentration of ammonia in it, which can be deadly to fish!

Your description of the white spot on the eye sounds like your comet may have a bacterial infection called cloudy eye, often triggered by poor water quality, stress, or overcrowding.

Do a huge water change, vacuum the gravel, test the water, and add a concentration of salt to help your fish out. 3 tablespoons per 10 gallons of water. Also, make sure it is all natural salt without idoine. Pre-disolve it in a cup of tank water and then pour gradually around the tank. Your test results should be as follows: ammonia and nitrite 0, nitrate under 40 ppm, and ph around 7.5ish.

Clean water will be the best thing you can do for those fish though.  Smiley
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 01:40:30 PM by Goldiegirl » Logged
Nossie
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2011, 02:50:07 PM »

Everything is more or less covered Smiley
Luckily, you'll easily avoid these problems in the future since your tank isn't that crowded Smiley A weekly water change of 50% or more depending on test results should do the trick!

But now since you've had the tank set up for two months without changing any water, your fish have had to swim around in their own sewage, which is bound to make them sick! Goldfish are river fish and they need fresh and clean water. So start changing it regularly!

The infections on the other hand sound like tumors or possibly blisters, caused by bad water quality or a bad diet. Salt will definitely help your fish recover from this and prevent further problems, provided that you'll start maintaining the tank properly (as discussed in this thread: (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.) ) and feeding your fish a more varied diet Smiley Most people raise their eyebrows at the idea that fish need to eat other foods than flakes and pellets, but it's true, and very important for the fish to grow and develop in a healthy way. Take a look at this thread: (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.) for some ideas on what kinds of foods to try and how to prepare it for your fish Smiley
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Skwishee
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2011, 02:56:20 PM »

Oh you mean the Hillstream loach? They are also called Butterfly Loach or Chinese Butterfly Plecos (not fish Wink)
[image]

I am afraid to say they aren't really compatible with goldfish, mainly because the loach thrives in fast moving waters and prefer tanks with a current, whereas Goldfish prefer slower moving water. If you do intend to keep the Loach in the same tank as the goldfish, you will need to somehow produce more of a current to make the loach happier, but not too the point that it upsets the goldfish and as the Hillstream Loach prefers high oxygenated water, it may be worth adding an air pump or bubble curtain. They will also appreciate a little algae growth to eat Smiley

Okay so 2 shubunkin and 1 comet? As Nossie said the tank isn't that over crowded, but you will need to upgrade in the future to accommodate their growth, how big are your guys at the moment?
These guys are all single tailed, so remember with single tailed you want 40 gallons (48 US gallons, 180 litres) for the first fish and 12 gallons (14 US gallons, 55 litres) for each additional fish, so ideally something around 64 gallons minimum (76 US gallons, 290 litres).

If and when you're able to get the bigger tank for the goldfish, you could always keep the hillstream loach in your 25 gallon tank, then you could accommodate the Hillstream Loach's needs without having to worry about Goldfish in the tank  Cheesy

I think everyone else has pretty much covered what to do to help with the illness  Smiley Hope they get better soon!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 03:13:37 PM by Skwishee » Logged
Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2011, 05:46:13 PM »

The pump I have that came with the tank does that it creates a small waterfall but not enough to upset the goldfish! The millroaches (Roger and Klaus) both seem perfectly happy as does my other shubunkin (Daryl)! Flashes eye looks alot like a scratch and I do have a plastic plant in the tank that I think he has caught it on which as you have said has become infected so will sort that for him and I am going to remove the plant from the tank! Thank you for the advice I will try and get some pictures worf should be easy but flash well as his name suggests he is fast and doesn't stay still long! Lol! I will keep you posted how they get on!
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Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2011, 05:52:06 PM »

This may sound really st*pid but could it possibly be because Worf is unhappy as he is used to being on his own. He has been on his for the last two years and now has four friends! I know this is a st*pid question but is it possible?
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Skwishee
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2011, 06:25:43 PM »

Ahh the pump will be good, can you change the current pressure or is it set at one speed? I'm sure the hill side loaches would appreciate extra oxygen from an air stone or bubble curtain too  Smiley

I have been looking into their compatibility more since you mentioned having them (and I personally find them beautiful creatures) and I also found out that the Hillstream Loach like very clean water, so another reason why they may not be compatible with goldfish and another reason to remember to keep up with those water changes on a weekly basis Wink
Do they have lots of hiding places or any driftwood? I've read Hillside Loaches like that  Wink

Although I appreciate they are doing well, it would still be a good idea using the 25 gallon as a high current tank, when you get the larger aquarium for the goldfish Smiley As then you could give both fish their optimum conditions ^_^

Also keep an eye on them if you've added salt, there's conflicting information about whether adding salt affects them or not, but you'll know if their irritated I'm sure? (Maybe someone here with more experience with pleco's and such could comment on that?)

It could quite possibly be the plastic plant that was the culprit to your shubunkin, good idea to remove it! In the future use either live plants (there are some that goldfish won't eat and are very low maintenance!) or silk plants.

Goldfish are very social creatures, so I doubt he would un happy? It isn't a st*pid question at all, I've considered it as well as my current goldfish is on her own and I wonder how it will affect her if I introduce friends a few years down the line. I intend to look into it a bit more and ask around, so I'll let you know if I find anything interesting  Smiley
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 06:45:13 PM by Skwishee » Logged
Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2011, 06:59:17 PM »

Thank you! The pet shop i got them from keeps millstreams with goldfish and I told them at the time that they would be with fish and it is very difficult to get an animal from them they are very strict! If the tank is wrong or not been up long enough they won't let you have a fish! They have plenty of places to hide! They have a bridge, a cave, they hide behind my pirate statue and under the arch statue! Unfortunately I don't have enough room for another tank or even a bigger one yet! Me and my partner are looking for our own place and have said that when we do we will get a big pro aquarium for Worf, Daryl and Flash in the front room and this one I currently have in the bedroom for Roger and Klaus, but until then it is a lovely dream for them!
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Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2011, 07:12:08 PM »

Thank you Nossie they are some good food ideas and if I get them I can give some to the rabbits aswell! I was worried at first with Worf and Daryl being shubunkins as I was led to believe they were meat eating but I have done some research and found that they are omnivores! So thank you again!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 07:37:05 PM by Vicloz2006 » Logged
Nossie
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2011, 05:30:35 AM »

It's not possible that your goldfish would get sad after being introduced to company, goldfish are very social creatures and they enjoy having other fish around Smiley He should by all means be happier, it's most likely that simple that you just didn't change the water after so long. Remember, every single week! It will probably be very good for your catfish too Smiley
Wouldn't worry too much about the current, most fish that are originally river fish will thrive as long as they have good filtration. You could always look around for a powerhead to increase the surface agitation if you feel like it Smiley
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Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2011, 02:23:53 PM »

I got my water checked and my nitrite and ammonia were slightly high, so I have bought some treatment for the water and got some salt to put in, but I can't use the treatment until Thursday as there is some medicine in the water and it doesn't run out until Wednesday! Thanks for all the advice!
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Nossie
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2011, 04:07:45 PM »

Treatment isn't needed, but a water change is!! Did you change any yet?
If there's medicine in your tank, your beneficial bacteria is destroyed. If you'd do a few large water changes, the medicine would be gone in a few days. Not to mention that you could get some carbon for your filter :/
What kind of medicine i that you have in the tank?
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Skwishee
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2011, 05:12:16 PM »

Its nice to hear about a petshop that takes tank size and cycling into consideration  Smiley

And I am glad to hear you have done the best for hillstream loaches that you can, I only knew a little about them as I considered keeping them with goldfish myself Wink

As Nossie has already asked what treatment did you use?
Sometimes it is better to try using salt first (this won't necessarily cure everything as some bacteria strands and the such are 'immune' to salt as it were) it's always a good starting place as it doesn't affect the water quality too badly or upset the good bacteria in the tank  Smiley

Goldiegirl, if she's around, has a wonderful website with natural remedies for all kinds of illness, which can you could always try before resorting to store brought items  Smiley

As Nossie mentioned, adding carbon to your filter will clear the tank of any chemicals, therefore the medicine could be removed sooner if you wanted.
It may also be a good idea to do a water change, before adding the salt, just to make sure your water is nice and fresh!
Also when after adding the salt, when you do a water change, you will need to add the salt removed from the water change, back into the tank. So pre-dissolve the salt in some tank water before adding it in okay?

Do you have a gravel vacuum? These are excellent when it comes to cleaning debris from the tank and siphoning water at the same time  Cheesy

Also if the Nitrite and Ammonia are high, it is possible that your tank is still cycling. There are a few threads around about cycling, but I could always describe it in a nutshell if you'd like!

Nice to hear you'll be getting a bigger aquarium for the fish in the future  Wink I'm on a similar mission at the moment!
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Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2011, 05:55:00 PM »

We looked the loaches up on the Internet and it says that they are social animals and get on with goldfish, but if you put two males in together they will chase each other round the tank although they won't actually fight. Yeah I bought a gravel vacuum today so I can give the tank a good clean. I also bought a bubble stone for the tank.
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Nossie
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2011, 05:18:35 AM »

Just to make sure, a large water change is needed, especially since you have the ammonia in there, which is VERY harmful to all your fish.Take out at least 60-70% of the water and vacuum the gravel well! You may want to open the filter too and check in case there's a lot of sludge collected there.
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Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2011, 09:47:54 PM »

Worf now seems to have a fungal infection Sad and even though I am going to clean the tank tomorrow and do a mass water change (unfortunately I haven't had time to do it today) I have put him in a hospital tank! I know some will think if you have time to do that why not the water? I noticed the fungal infection just before u went to go to bed, I checked him at 2 o'clock this afternoon and he was fine and again at 5 he was also fine then. I manages to get the other tank sorted without waking my mum and dad or my partner but I don't think I could get away with doing a water change at 2 in the morning. Lol! Anyway he is in a hospital tank, with a pump and I have put some salt in the I got at the pet shop he already seems happier and note lively even though he has only been in for 5 mins! Daryl is still fine and Flashes eye has cleared up! Will the salt help Worf or do you think I should get some medicine to put in? I did clean the pump from my main tank out whilst setting up the hospital tank and you were right about that Nossie it was gunged up, I will clean it again tomorrow when I change the water and clean the tank. Thank you everyone for your help I will keep you posted on Worfand let you know about the water.

Also how often can you use salt treatment?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 10:06:38 PM by Vicloz2006 » Logged
Skwishee
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2011, 04:53:56 AM »

If you've already added in salt you got from the pet shop and followed the directions, I wouldn't add anything more in just yet.

You cleaned the filter in old tank water right?

As for the salt treatment, usually you dissolve it in a cup and add it to the tank, depending on what your dealing with, depends on the concentration. Usually if your adding a lot of salt, it is best to add salt in slowly every 12 hours or so, so the fish can adjust slowly and once you have the right concentration you leave it.
Of course when you do a water change, this will remove the salt, so you will need to add it back in.

However if you've already added in salt from the pet shop, you won't need to add in more Wink
What type of salt did you purchase? Someone here may be able to recommend a concentration amount.
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Nossie
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2011, 05:25:23 AM »

I've successfully treated a light bout of fungus with salt Smiley It wasn't a very big dose though, roughly 1 teaspoon for four gallons. But I think you should follow the dosage directions on the package, it usually depends a little bit on the product you buy Smiley

You're not going to empty the whole tank when you clean it, right? Because that would destroy the beneficial bacteria that are living the tank, and like Skwishee pointed out, the filter has to be cleaned in tank water! So every time you change water in the tank, you wash the filter sponges in a bucket of the water you just took out. Most of the bacteria dealing with the fishes' waste will be collected in the filter, so you don't want to ruing that by washing it in tap water Smiley

And finally, the quarantine tank is probably not cycled either, so you need to be extra careful to keep an eye on the water quality there! A sick fish can't recover is he's forced to swim in waste, ammonia and nitrite are very toxic and will kill your fish easily. Even nitrates are harmful when they reach 40ppm and above. So if you see that the water quality is far off from ideal (ammonia and nitrite more than 0, nitrate more than 30-40ppm) IMMEDIATELY CHANGE THE WATER and add a new salt dose for the amount you just removed.

Good luck with your fish! Smiley
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Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2011, 09:40:59 PM »

Worf seems much better now! The fungus seems to have gone and the lumps on his gills have gone completely, the one on his chin is still there but is much smaller he doesnt seem to be eating much, but he hasn't been eating alot since the lump grew under his chin. Could this lump be bothering him? I am watching him nd he is eating the flakes I put in for him but when I checked before the daphia's were still in top of the water and I had to get them out, also the cucumber and spinach I gave him was still there untouched! Any suggestions as I know he won't get everything he needs to get better from just the flakes. How can I get him to eat something else?  Cry
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Nossie
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2011, 02:30:19 AM »

Good to hear it's clearing up! Smiley
Tubifex is fairly small and easy to eat, maybe you should try buying some freeze-dried and soak it in a little cup of tank water?

It is possible he is bothered by that lump. Usually the ones around the mouth, gills and vent are in the way and might hurt the goldfish.
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Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2011, 08:00:14 AM »

He the lump is even smaller today and he is eating better! Looks like he us going to be fine!  Cheesy I will post some pictures of my babies as soon as I can!
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Skwishee
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2011, 08:13:18 AM »

That's great to hear!

Also when you feed him veg, I assume you partially cook it and everything?
I find a sea weed clip really helpful for feeding slices of veg, it's basically a peg with a sucker pad on it  Smiley
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Nossie
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2011, 08:55:37 AM »

Wonderful! Smiley I'm so happy for you! Smiley
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Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2011, 01:02:29 PM »

Yeah Skwishee I followed the instruction is the link that Nossie posted for me! Both sides of his head have changed colour, this is where two of his lumps were, is this normal? His head was dark it is now almost White!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 04:19:53 PM by Vicloz2006 » Logged
Nossie
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2011, 05:02:40 PM »

Yes, goldfish change color while growing up all the time, so no need to worry Smiley Some fish can start black and end up golden, while some are red and white and turn out all white when they're older Smiley

Unless of course it looks like some strange kind of thicker mucus layer or something on the head, if not, it's just a small pigment change Smiley
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Vicloz2006
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Re: My poorly shubunkin
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2011, 08:53:40 PM »

Ok thank you Nossie! It doesn't look like a layer of anything! He is just lighter than before!
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