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Hanna
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POST for Jodi
« on: January 08, 2011, 01:07:44 AM »

Original post from Jodi

Hello there,

After spending two days scanning the interenet and still not really knowing how to treat my sick fish, I decided to post.  Hope you can help.  First, I have learned a ton about how to better care for my fantail.  Thought I was doing a great job but now realize goldfish require a ton more care than I initially thought.  That being said here is what is going on:  Went on vacation for 10 days and left one of those 10 day feeders on the bottom of my tank to feed my two fancy tails.  (One black moore and one goldfish fantail).  When I returned I noticed some algae on the sides fo the tank and my goldfish looked very bloated though was eating and swimming fine.  A couple of his gils were slightly sticking out and some redness is showing that the base of these.  Now I have noticed a few raised bumps forming on his side.  Tonight I noticed a small white spot that is larger than an ich spot would be.  I have started treating both fish since I have no hospital tank with an anti-biotic food yesterday.  Dropsy doesn't seem right as all the scales are not affected.  Consitpation?  I have no idea though the new food over vacation leaves me wondering.  I have tested the water after I changed 25%.  The only reading that I got that was above average was nitrates and water hardness.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. 


How big is your tank:  10 Gal /

2. For how long has the tank been set up: 6 months (had fish for 2 years.)

3. How many fish:2

4. What kinf of fish:see above

6. How often do you perform water changes:apparently not enough

7. How big are your waterchanges:      ........25.............%

8. What kind of waterconditioner are you using: jungle

9. Do you add beneficial bacteria:
no

++++++++3333333333333333333333333+




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Hanna
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2011, 01:21:18 AM »

Hi Jodi and welcome to the forum.

We all here learned that it is much more into GF keeping than we first thought, thanks to wonderful people on here helping.
We also say it straight away without beating on and around the bush if sth is wrong.

Now to your problem:

I understand that Ammonia and Nitrites are both 0ppm?
How high are the Nitrates?

You want to do a 50% waterchange asap but also adding beneficial bacteria and waterconditioner.
Beneficial bacteria aid in the Nitrogen cycle and waterconditioner removes chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals.
Waterchanges should be done once a week.

Also please never start medical treatment WITHOUT having a prevoius water change, because bad waterquality + meds = desaster.

Apart from this 10 gal is to small for 2 fish, as the rule of thumb is 10 gal min per goldfish.
To keep 2 fish in 10 gal you need extra good filtration, also an airstone to oxygenate the water.

Here we strongly advise AGAINST holiday feeding blocks, as they pollute the water resulting in poor water quality and sick+stressed fish  ( wich unfortunately is the case with your fishies  Cry )

Can you post some pics?
You may need stronger medication than only the medicated food, maybe Multicure with Methyleneblue.

Keep us updated, and GOOD LUCK
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Jodi
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2011, 01:31:04 AM »

Hanna,

Thanks for reposting for me and responding.  I noticed I put my post in the wrong place.  Thanks for the speedy answer as I'm sick with worry about this fish.  I have done a water conditioner...always do.  And realize that block feader was a mistake, though I just noticed there are automatic feeders which I can use in the future.  Anyway the test strips showed the nitrates to be only one step above normal.  Ammonia and Nitrites are 0.  I do have an airstone and the filter came with the tank so assume it is sufficient.  (Funny, I thought I was doing well by upgrading to the 10 gal tank.)  Anway, I've seen the pictures of dropsy and it has certainly not advanced that far as my fish does NOT look like a pinecone.  I will try to snap a shot and upload.  Thanks for all of your help.  

Can't get a picture worth posting.  Crappy camera, I guess. 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 01:45:48 AM by Jodi » Logged
Nossie
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2011, 03:59:39 AM »

To keep two goldfish in a 10 gallon isn't good unless it's a temporary solution, imagine that both of them may easily reach 6 inches in body length, and can you further imagine them swimming comfortably in such a small tank? Do please get yourself a 20-30 gallon for these two asap Smiley

Other than that, it's hard to imagine what the disease might be, however, bloating is NEVER a good sign. Internal parasites or bacterial infections may be involved!! What are you treating the fish with besides medicated food?

Also, don't bother buying any automatic feeders, your fish could EASILY survive two weeks without food Smiley In fact, it would be healthier for them not to eat for a while if you go for short vacations now and then Smiley
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Andrea
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2011, 05:47:52 AM »

I've been learning recently how dangerous high nitrates can be, what are the exact readings of your nitrates? Maybe this could be your problem  Huh I would do a big water change (50%+) asap and then continue with your treatment, you may have to do multiple water changes as in two a week to keep those nitrates down. I am currently doing this with a 6 gallon tank which has one goldfish in it. I am talking about nitrates at 40ppm, I notice a huge difference with this from when nitrates are at 20 compared to 40.

I would keep up with the medicated food and add some aquarium salt to the tank, following the instructions on the package Smiley

Some photos would help as Hanna said and upgrading the tank as soon as you can would be the ideal solution Smiley But fix this first.
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Hanna
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2011, 06:01:53 AM »

Hi Jody,
don't worry too much about posting in the wrong spot, lol, it is fixed.

According to teststrips, unfortunately they are not that accurate.
We recommend the liquid tests. I know they are more expensive, but in the end it is the better value for your money. We recommend API MasterTestKit for Freshwater, It contains 4 glass test tubes with caps, and tests for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH ( low and high range ) you get about 800 tests out of it.
So as soon as it is possible for you, you may want to get one of those test kits. In the meantime you can get water samples to your local petstore and have it tested there, usually it is for free as a customer service.
It would be good if you can write the exact numerical results down and post them here to us.

The very main thing for now is to monitor the water quality, do waterchanges accordingly and treat your darling fishie with med-food and maybe more, like already suggested.
And in the  (near) future you may be able to upgrade your tank to a proper size for your goldies, which they really need... and keep this tank as a hospital tank.... ( the sooner, the better )

BTW, what are the names of your finned friends?  We love to see pics Grin
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Mindemae
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2011, 02:29:17 PM »

Jodi I wouldn't add aquarium salt, but try epsoms salts, 1/4 tsp per gallon of water and try raising the temp up to 80F.
If it is just bloating caused from constipation this will help.  Also, drop pieces of epsoms salts in front of your fish and see if they will eat them.. Smiley  I would also keep feeding the medicated food for at least a week...if no improvement then switch to something else.
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Jodi
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2011, 03:33:28 PM »

Thank you all for the tips and advice.  The medicated food seems to be helping.  The red spots are nearly gone and it looks like the bloating is going down just a bit.  Even the scales don't seem to be sticking out in the spots they were.  One question for those recommending salt to the water.  If the water is already very hard, wouldn't that make it even worse?  I've read that adding salt is a way to increase hardness if the water is too soft.  This is what I found in my research, though it was contrary to what I thought about water softeners for home water supply use.  Rest assured, a bigger tank is in the near future...just wasn't in the budget when we upgrated to the 10 gallon.  (Husband lost his job 18 months ago and has just found some temporary contract work...yay!!) 
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Jodi
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2011, 03:50:29 PM »

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I've been learning recently how dangerous high nitrates can be, what are the exact readings of your nitrates? Maybe this could be your problem  Huh I would do a big water change (50%+) asap and then continue with your treatment, you may have to do multiple water changes as in two a week to keep those nitrates down. I am currently doing this with a 6 gallon tank which has one goldfish in it. I am talking about nitrates at 40ppm, I notice a huge difference with this from when nitrates are at 20 compared to 40.  The nitrates were at 40 according to the test strips. 

I would keep up with the medicated food and add some aquarium salt to the tank, following the instructions on the package Smiley

Some photos would help as Hanna said and upgrading the tank as soon as you can would be the ideal solution Smiley But fix this first.
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Jodi
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2011, 03:53:20 PM »

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Hi Jody,
don't worry too much about posting in the wrong spot, lol, it is fixed.

According to teststrips, unfortunately they are not that accurate.
We recommend the liquid tests. I know they are more expensive, but in the end it is the better value for your money. We recommend API MasterTestKit for Freshwater, It contains 4 glass test tubes with caps, and tests for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH ( low and high range ) you get about 800 tests out of it.
So as soon as it is possible for you, you may want to get one of those test kits. In the meantime you can get water samples to your local petstore and have it tested there, usually it is for free as a customer service.
It would be good if you can write the exact numerical results down and post them here to us.

The very main thing for now is to monitor the water quality, do waterchanges accordingly and treat your darling fishie with med-food and maybe more, like already suggested.
And in the  (near) future you may be able to upgrade your tank to a proper size for your goldies, which they really need... and keep this tank as a hospital tank.... ( the sooner, the better )

BTW, what are the names of your finned friends?  We love to see pics Grin
 Crazy as this may seem, they are my son's fish and he never named them.  He's had other fish and named them, but not these.  Boys!  I'll have to get on him to name them.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 03:55:57 PM by Jodi » Logged
April
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2011, 04:11:12 PM »

Hi Jodi  Smiley I hope your fish will do well with the above given advice. Definetly get the master kit with the 4 tests mentioned above. The strips just don't cut it unfortunately and the liquid ones last long and are very accurate. Buying them separately costs double or more (I found this out the hard way oh well) The API one is most recommended and what I wanted but it was out of stock at the time so I went with the Hagen mini master and it is also very good. In Canada they run around 29 to 35 dollars but online they are almost half that!

Now, as for your little darlings, you will have to come up with some cute names and we'd love to see some pics Grin
take care and welcome to the forum!

April and Jillyfish  Wink
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Andrea
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2011, 09:57:25 PM »

If your nitrates are at 40 I hope you have done a big water change to get them down Smiley
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Nossie
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2011, 04:25:59 AM »

Salt shouldn't interfere with the water much... if you buy the right kind! There are some salts made to add to cichlid tanks (African cichlids) to make the water harder, so make sure you pick some medical salt Wink
Besides, goldfish really don't care for their water hardness Smiley
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Jodi
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2011, 11:10:18 PM »

So it seems my fantail may be taking a turn for the worse.  Yesterday I noticed a very large bump on each side of her bum.  Today those bumps have protruded and look white at the ends.  I have never seen anything like it and am at a total loss as to what is going on now.  She has also resorted to hanging in one part of the tank and didn't eat today.   Cry  Back to research to figure out what is going on.  The water has been changed, of course. 
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Jodi
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2011, 11:21:02 PM »

Wondering if what is going on could be this:

Glugea and Henneguya
       Symptoms: Similar to Lymphocystis, the fish will have nodular white swellings on fins or body.

        Glugea and Henneguya are sporozoans that form large cysts on the fish's body and release spores. Luckily, these diseases are very rare. The fish bloat up, with tumor like protrusions, and eventually die.
        No cure, as of yet. It is best to destroy the infected fish before the spores can spread.

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Hanna
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2011, 11:48:13 PM »

Hi Jodi,
I never heard of this desease.

Can you post pics please?

I still miss the exact numbers of your test results for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH ?
How did you treat the fish until now?
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Jodi
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2011, 12:13:28 AM »

Hanna,
All numbers were normal and 0 except nitrates which were 40 but I have done water changes since those tests. Treatment has been the medicated food.  Bloating has improved somewhat.  The red spots went away.  These two nodules I noticed late yesterday and have protruded beyone the scales today.  They seem to have white (probably pus?) coming out of them now.  Oddly, they are both on the exact same spots on either side of the anus.  I've tried snapping pictures but have very poor luck since he is hanging in the back and my camera isn't getting anything worth posting.  Will try again tomorrow.

I have a healthy black moore in the tank so am afraid to monkey too much with treatments in the tank.  I'm also afraid to stress the fish by pulling her out and putting her into a bucket or whatever. 
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Andrea
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2011, 05:57:36 AM »

Without treatment the sick fish may die, keeping the healthy fish in the tank with the sick fish may cause the healthy fish to die. It's hard to tell you what to do without a hospital tank. I would say treat it because if you don't get rid of it well they will probably both die anyway  Undecided Though if it is what you are saying which I guess it sounds like it is, it does not sound good and how did this fish get it in the first place?

Continue with the medicated food for as long as it says too and hopefully Nossie or Minde can help you with these lumps.
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Andrea
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2011, 06:04:24 AM »

Just doing some research on these diseases and it doesn't look good, it's hard to say if it is this without a photo. But I would be separating this fish unless you want both to die and you will probably have to sterilise the tank anyway.

Is this what it looks like? (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)
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Jodi
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2011, 08:30:27 PM »

After doing further research, I found someone with the same exact symptoms with their goldie.  However, they never reported back as to the end result.  The two nodules on my fish had burst with white stuff yesterday.  By the end  of the night, the stuff stopped coming out and all that is left is a slightly red opening where the nodules were.  So, what I have read is that the bacteria inside bursts out.  This is not good as the entire tank becomes infected.  My fish is not eating anymore and just basically hanging out---still bloated.  I'm going to move her out and try some epsom salt but I don't think there is much if any hope according to what I've read.  Thanks all for your suggestions and taking the time to help. 
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Andrea
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2011, 10:43:56 PM »

If I was you I'd be moving the healthy fish out of that tank and leaving the sick one in there. There is not much hope for him unfortunately and the tank is probably already infected so if you leave the healthy one in there he may also get infected. I would also be sterilising the tank whether the fish makes it or not. Best of luck, I hate hearing about poor sick fish Sad
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Nossie
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2011, 08:01:43 AM »

I have never heard of those lumps, at most I know some parasites form cysts on the skin when they multiply.
Did they look like they were under the skin, which kind of burst in the end? Or were they strange lumps that seemed to be attached on the skin?
Photos would help so much!!

But for now, do your best to keep the water quality as good as possible, and... if I were you, I'd add some normal medical aquarium salt. And combine that with some sort of anti-bacterial water treatment. There should be a wide range of those available, both in liquid and tablet form.
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Jodi
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2011, 04:38:56 PM »

Nossie,  Since the fish were in my son's room and he was asleep, I couldn't get a picture the night they were big and bursting.  By the next morning they were gone.  You can't even tell they were there.  They came out and burst in one day.  They started at lumps under the scales that protruded out with white stuff oozing out slowly.  From what I read, they are bacteria exiting the body.  Today goldie only looks bloated with her scales slightly sticking out because of the bloating.  I have put her into a tank and am treating the water with espsom salt to help pull out the bloating/bacteria.  She is not eating at all so am feeling like it may already be too late.   Embarrassed
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fantailer
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2011, 07:49:04 PM »

Are the scales sticking out andmaking him look like a pinecone? Because that's dropsy!
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Jodi
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2011, 12:21:07 AM »

As he has continued to swell up, they are sticking out now.  I didn't think it was dropsy because that wasn't all that was going on and certainly was not one of the initial symptoms.  One way or the the other, he isn't going to make it.   Cry
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Andrea
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2011, 12:46:36 AM »

That does sound like dropsy Sad I'm sorry Jodi, he sounds like such a poor sick fish and I'm surprised he is still with us. There are ways to humanely put down a fish, but I know not everyone can do this and I don't think I could ever. It's just a thing to think about to stop him for suffering and then you concentrate on making sure the healthy fish is ok, who I would treat with medication just in case!
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Nossie
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2011, 12:34:37 PM »

Epsom salts won't really treat any diseases, they just relax the muscles of the fish and also works as a laxative.
Normal medical aquarium salt will treat both parasites and fungus, but I think you really need to add something stronger in here!!
There's something called Maracyn 2, that has been used by various people treating dropsy successfully. I think that's the last way out.

Are you feeding the medicated food to the healthy one?
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Andrea
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2011, 08:27:26 PM »

Is Maracyn 2 the one that contains tetracycline Nossie?? If so, I didn't know you could use that to treat dropsy. Good to know.

Let us know how your fish is doing Jodi and what you are exactly using to treat them.
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Nossie
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2011, 06:07:10 AM »

Honestly, I don't really know what it contains Wink Since it's not available here, I've got something called Furanol 2 by a German company, it works the same Smiley
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Mindemae
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Re: POST for Jodi
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2011, 06:24:35 AM »

I beg to differ, furanol 2 does not work the same.  Maracyn II has a form of tetracycline with the active ingredient Minocycline, which treats internal and exteranal GRAM-Negative bacterial infections.
Furanol 2 contains NO tetracycline and has Nitrofurazone and furazolidone in it, which are very different medications than Maracyn II.  Furanol 2 can treat gram positive as well as gram negative but had no effect what so ever on my sisters fish that had dropsy, while the Maracyn II cured it.
The medicated food you have, also has nitrofurazone and also sulfa in it.
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