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Author Topic: Questions regarding slower growing fish  (Read 1669 times)
Bel
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Questions regarding slower growing fish
« on: January 24, 2011, 11:15:09 AM »

I meant to ask this yesterday but never got back here to type it out.  ugh 
A 2yr old with a stomach virus is time consuming.  Shocked

So here is where I'm at.  We did around a 30% water change yesterday, when the little one was napping.  Two of the smallest of the commons were looking stressed before the water change, sitting near the bottom of the tank when they normally don't.  After the water change they seem happy again.  Feed them a few hours after the change and they ate and are acting normal again. 

There are around 6 of these commons that are probably half the size of the rest.  They don't seem to be growing near as fast and just seem to be the first to have any problem.  After I told you guys that we hadn't lost any fish yet, 2 of them passed away.  I jinxed them.  Cry  One of the two didn't look right from the time we put them in, he swam on his side and looked a bit deformed in the tail area.  I know these are not breed to be winners but I would like to do something if there is anything I can to protect these smaller ones till they get to their new home.

Is there anything that you guys would suggest?  I do have plenty of extra tanks if you think they need to be moved.  The 20g is empty and clean btw.  I needed to start up a QT tank.  The larger fish in the tank are around 2 inches not counting the tail and the smaller ones are maybe a little less than an inch.  Most have grown so fast I can hardly believe it!  But these small ones may not make it through the cycling if I don't do something.   Thanks for all you help so far!
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2011, 11:27:58 AM »

Water parameter are:  .25 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates, and 7.6 ph
The ammonia did go down some and I expect there will be nitrites showing up soon.  Will add that beneficial bacteria as soon as the hubby picks it up for me.  The water conditioner I'm using is Start Right, which I didn't pick out honestly, I just told the store owner to add a water cond. to the stuff I was buying when I set up the tank.  Should I get hubby to pick up a different one?  Maybe Prime? 
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Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2011, 11:48:15 AM »

In the future, wait until your tank finishes cycling before putting any fish in there.

For now, add some Prime and it will neutralize the ammonia. It works nicely and sill allows the cycling process to proceed.  You can add it daily to neutralize new ammonia that's created every day.

You can still measure the ammonia too while using Prime, and when you get a 0 reading, then you can stop adding it.
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2011, 12:08:29 PM »

Yeah, I was a noob and the fish store peeps told me this was still how they cycle the tanks.  Feeders  Cry

I thought the Prime was just a water conditioner?   Didn't know it would help with the ammonia, that is great!

Edited:  I though that was what I always used on the saltwater tank so I looked through all my stuff and sure nuff,  I found the bottle of Prime, its for freshwater and saltwater.  It is what I used as a water conditioner but I didn't remember it gets rid of ammonia as well.  Its right there on the bottle, removes Chlorine, Chloramine, and Ammonia,  AWESOME! 

Another few questions please, so sorry.  It says to use one capful for each 50g of water, so a cap and a half for 75g but it says its best to add to new water during water changes.  Can I just add the 1 1/2 capfuls straight to the aquarium?  It also doesn't say how often it can be used.  I read that if you use too much water conditioner it can make breathing hard on your fish because of all the extra slime coat it adds.  Don't want to overdose them, can you tell me how much you would use and how often then please?  Do you add the beneficial bacteria along with this too? 
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 12:31:14 PM by Bel » Logged
Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2011, 02:37:22 PM »

I put in the recommended dosage right away to treat the whole tank. Then I changed the water every other day and put in enough for the new water, plus a little extra.  I also added a partial dose on the days I didn't do a water change. I tried to imagine how much ammonia my little fish made since the last dose, and I figured even if I wasn't covering all the ammonia, I knew I was getting the bulk of it. It worked great and he recovered fully.

He had ammonia burns before I added the prime, and they are completely gone now. It may take a week or two before the ammonia is gone.  And don't forget your nitrites may spike after the ammonia is gone.  Your reading of .25 isn't that bad, but still needs to be monitored.  You can also space out your water changes more as your conditions improve.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 02:43:02 PM by Summer Time » Logged
Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2011, 02:56:54 PM »

I also added Stability (which is beneficial bacteria) for about a week and I think it help a little.  I also took some filter media out of my other established tank and folded it to make it fit into the filter of the tank with ammonia. The good bacteria from this one will help populate the new one with good bacteria.

I didn't do all that on one day Smiley   It was just that every few days when I tested and still had ammonia, I tried something else to speed it along:)

But if you're ok just using the Prime and waiting, that's ok too, it will stabilize in its own time.  And as long as your neutralizing the bad things, your fish will be ok.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 02:59:19 PM by Summer Time » Logged
Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2011, 03:16:15 PM »

Ok, ty for all the helpful information.  I'll do the recommended dosage for the whole tank since it does say you can do up to 5 times the amount without causing any problems and you didn't have any problems with it either.  The 1 1/2 caps should be fine as that is way less than 5x's.  No ammonia burns so far but those smaller fish seem so much more sensitive than the others.  The two that were looking unhappy before the water change look fine now so it did help some and with this product I hope that they survive it all till I can get the tank fully cycled.  I'll add that beneficial bacteria then also once I get it here since you said it was ok.

Thank you very much for your replies!
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Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2011, 04:05:56 PM »

You're welcome. My ammonia spiked when I was medicating for something else, but now I have learned to test while medicating Smiley

Your fish sound sooo cute and tiny.  Mine is a comet, 2" plus tail.  Smiley
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 04:44:28 PM »

I just found one of those tiny ones I was worried about stuck to the filter.   Cry
He was hanging out near the top of the water right beside the filter this morning and I thought he was just hungry because that is where the food goes to first is that spot.  He moved after feeding time and seemed fine but that wasn't the case.  He was beat up a bit from the time we put all of them in there though, little tail fin was bitten a couple times it looked like.  Poor fella  Cry
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Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2011, 05:43:40 PM »

The poor guy. Sad   He sounds weak and maybe needs individual care.  Maybe you could move him to another tank temporarily? I've heard the sponge filters are more gentle in this situation.

Or maybe put him in another tank with a gentle air stone, with no filter, and see if he gains some strength back.  He may just need a little longer to recuperate.  At least you'll know you tried.
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Hanna
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 06:43:13 PM »

A filter is a MUST
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Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2011, 07:38:45 PM »

OK.  I thought maybe for a short time it would be better than letting him get stuck onto the filter in her normal tank, if she didn't have a sponge filter, kind of as a last resort to help him out.  But you have more experience than I, so I guess you always need a filter.   Wink
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 07:50:50 PM »

Sorry I didn't say it I guess cause I was upset at the time.  He was lifeless already.  Cry
If I see any other little ones getting picked on I can move them to a different tank to get them away from the larger ones.
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Hanna
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 07:53:39 PM »

Yes, it is very important, as goldfish are very, very messy and they produce lots of waste. Without a filter they would swim in their own sewerage in no time.
Filters can be protected with a sponge over the intake pipe. Also there are different strenghts available.
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Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2011, 12:00:59 AM »

Sorry he didn't make it.  I hope the others are doing well.
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Mindemae
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2011, 06:26:45 AM »

Regarding filters.  Please do not ever shut off your filter, even for a short time.
Your beneficial bacteria live in the filter media and when a filter is shut down, the beneficial bacteria will die off in droves!
Your beneficial/good bacteria like any other living organism, need oxygen to survive and food.
When you shut off the filter, their means of oxygen and food are greatly reduced.
The food source is of course the ammonia that the fish produce in the tank.
Feeding your beneficial bacteria means a healthier tank. Smiley
That's why in a goldfish tank, an airstone with air pump, besides a filter is so important.
Goldfish use up alot of dissolved oxygen in the tank.
You need to provide extra in the way of an air pump plus the filter.
Goldfish also produce 75% of ammonia just through "breathing".
The rest is excreted through their waste. Smiley
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Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2011, 06:50:42 AM »

Hi. Do you leave the filters running during water changes? Thar's what I do for my 10 gals, but what about the 75 gal?
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2011, 08:13:11 AM »

I do leave it running Summer.  The intake on my filter has an intention so it goes down pretty far into the tank, even taking out half the water it is still able to work just fine. 

Sorry I was not clear yesterday, I really felt bad that this little guy didn't make it.  He was away from the others hiding beside the filter like I said in the morning, it wasn't the filter that caused any problem, he was weak from the time I got him and he was getting bullied also I believe. 

I watch them a lot and didn't really see it happen but then last night I went up to look at all the fishies and they thought it was food time,  they all swim to where my face is and I saw 2 of the larger ones nip at a tiny one.   At the rate they are growing I'm afraid the large ones will soon be able to eat the others if I don't do something.  They were all around the same size when I put them in the tank but man, some grew really fast. 
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2011, 08:18:52 AM »

I read that some of you can get a product that cycles the tank in a couple days.  I would like to set up the qt tank and put the smaller ones (5 or 6) into the tank to keep them from being bullied/eaten.  I'm afraid they won't make it if they are kept like they are now.  Is there any way I can get anything like that to get the qt tank cycled for the tiny fishies?  Or any other suggestions to protect them?
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Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2011, 09:10:24 AM »

I haven't used a product like that, but if you're looking for a way to protect them right away, temporarily, maybe you could insert a tank divider, or some people have put in a kitchen strainer upside down to keep them separate.
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Nossie
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2011, 09:34:36 AM »

There is no such product, in order to cycle a tank in only a few days (which I did) you have to use either filter media or gravel from an already cycled system, since you don't have such a thing around, you won't be able to cycle the tank too fast.
There are lots of products available promising this and that, but it can't work since the beneficial bacteria need TIME to establish in the substrate and filter media. Sorry Undecided
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Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2011, 10:06:04 AM »

I think Stability may have helped my tank a little, but it still took a month.
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2011, 11:01:15 AM »

Oh noes!  I thought I had read about a product, Super Chlor or something that someone used. 

A divider with small holes would work if I can find one for the tank I suppose.  I'll look for one asap. 
The Prime and stability are helping in the 75 gallon but it has been going now for 2 1/2 weeks already so it would still take a while for the qt tank. 
The 75g is now reading.../  .25 ammonia, .25 nitrites, 5.0 nitrates so its moving along and I'm able to keep the ammonia from getting TOO high with the Prime.  Added some more after this testing today.  That is some great stuff!

I tried and tried to get a picture of the size difference and I think out of 50 I may have one good one that shows how tiny some are compared to most of them.

The last one I put just because Tiger (he is the one on the left) looked so funny, I love that little guy.  He's like, What is this crazy lady doing? OK I'll pose for you! lol
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 11:03:39 AM by Bel » Logged
Mindemae
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2011, 11:52:23 AM »

Not to burst your bubble, but these are FEEDER fish.  They come with all kindas of disease and parasites.
Also, with just the slightest bit of ammonia showing they are being poisoned which weakens them also.
I have always had to treat my feeder fish I've bought with a Parasitic and also an antibacterial water treatment as well as food.
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Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2011, 12:00:33 PM »

They're so cute! How many are in the tank?
I don't think the Prime lowers ammonia, it just neutralizes it so it doesn't hurt your fish.  
Optimally you want it to read 0, but it still needs to be present (for a nano-second), so that your cycle has something to feed off of. Hope you know what i mean, that's hard to put into words.
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aimeekat
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2011, 12:30:39 PM »

Sorry nossie i disagree about the cycle product from expierence. bel I have had awesome success with a product called super-bac nitrifying bacteria for freshwater. I have been using it for many months(at least 6) and my tanks always cycle just about a day or so as long as i put fish in right away so bacteria has food. Only time i had issue with it is when i started using prime at same time and that killed the food for bacteria and it couldnt grow it works best when i use stresscoat + or other conditioners that don't contain a certain ingredient. I also use filters that have some sort of surface for growth either canisters with balls, stars or rings and or bio-wheel filters. So with that combination i have had 100% success. If you decide to use it contact me and i will help you make sure it gets going right. here is link to bigals where they sell it and they also have a video about it on there (Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.) not sure if you can find it locally i got lucky and found it a a small petstore here. It is the product that store using to restart their tanks when they just moved. I swear by this stuff if someone asked me what product i couldnt live without this would be it lol. I also use it for major water changes and when i do cleaning of filters. I have started all of my tanks with this stuff.
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2011, 12:55:04 PM »

Yeah I understand you Summer. Smiley  There are roughly 20 in there,  I keep trying to count and get a different number every time lol, me and my 11 yr old daughter have tried and tried.   Grin  

We were mislead by the lfs and bought these feeders to cycle the tank not knowing we could do it without fish.  Thank God I told him **** NO when he tried to get me to put 100 in there.   Roll Eyes

@ Minde- I did know they are feeder fish but not that you treat them.  They are showing no signs of any diseases atm but do you still treat them anyway?  The ones we lost were beaten up already from the time we put them in the tank, tail fins bitten and one was already swimming sideways and looked like his back end was deformed from the start, they were also the smallest ones.  I didn't pick them out by no means, the store employees just threw some in a bag and there ya go.    The problem I am having right now is the larger ones nipping at the tiny ones.  Like I said some grew tons faster and some seem like little runts that haven't grown much yet at all.  

We will probably be keeping them till maybe March when the pond is ready for them and only the largest will go first, a couple at a time.  I just want to protect the tiny ones in the mean time.  That's why I was asking if there was a faster way to cycle up the qt tank to put the little ones in,  I know the ammonia and nitrites are going to be harder on them even at small amounts than the larger fishies.   And them getting nipped at is stressing them too I'm sure.  

What type of things are you using to treat with for parasites?  Aquarium salt?  Can I still put things like that in there even when it is cycling still?  Names of products will help me the most since I have no idea what treatments to use please.   Wink
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2011, 01:04:00 PM »

I was typing out a waaaay too long reply when you posted yours Aimee.  Thank you so much for that information.  If I can get it fast enough and get the qt tank ready I may be able to save these little ones after all, that way they are away from the larger fish AND have better water quality since they are so small.  I can just use the other stuff for conditioner in that tank, Start right its called that doesn't kill off the ammonia so the good bacteria can make it in the qt.  I can use some of the water from the 75g for a small amount of ammonia maybe to jump start it with that product you think?  Then once the parameters are correct put in the tiny fish?  This correct?

P.S  I think I saw that same product at one of my lfs's.  /crossing fingers I'm right and going to call them right now. Smiley
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 01:15:00 PM by Bel » Logged
Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2011, 01:46:10 PM »

That's such bad advice from your lfs. What did they tell you to do with the feeders when the tank is cycled? Bring them back for a refund?  I guess they're just trying to make a sale.
I hope you're able to get your money back for the dead ones, and hope no disease has gotten into the tank.  Sorry. Hope they turn out healthy.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 01:48:45 PM by Summer Time » Logged
Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2011, 01:56:30 PM »

Yes, they said I could bring them back in after the tank cycled.  Was only $3 for all of them so I won't worry about getting the money back or anything but I wish they had given me better advice in the first place.  I've learned my lesson not to trust them after this.   There are only 2 places that sell fish within an hour drive from my home and they both tell people the same thing, to cycle with hardy fish, which I see now that the feeders are not always very hardy either.   Cry

These guys will have a great home after all of this and I will let these pet shops know that they are doing the cycle wrong and hurting these fish in the process.  You would think they would have known this already?!?!  They do the same with tropical and saltwater fish as well so its not just the feeder fish that are getting used for cycling.
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