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Author Topic: Questions regarding slower growing fish  (Read 1487 times)
Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2011, 03:46:24 PM »

 Grin. No, I wasn't worried about $3, more wanting to discourage the lfs from selling the feeders.
They will love their new home when the pond is ready.  Smiley
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Mindemae
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2011, 03:49:39 PM »

This is what I have always treated my feeder fish with.
Jungle medicated antibacterial food.  Feed only that and nothing else for 1 week.
Salt and methylene blue. OR you can use Start Right water condtioner by Jungle...in the jar not bottle is is crystal form and contains salt, and methylene blue and is a complete water condtioner.
You can also, after the antibiotic food treatment, you can feed an anti parasitic foo by Jungle.
I also have used Paricide by Winston, it also treats gill flukes which most feeders have and most lfs do not even bother to treat the feeder tanks since they come and go so quickly out of the store.
Ask you lfs if they treat their feeder tanks against any parasites or bacteria and ask them what they use.
I got my feeders at petsmart and they told me they do not bother treating the feeder tanks.

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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2011, 04:11:26 PM »

Thank you for the product names!  You would know I have Jungle start right but its the bottle. grrr  Angry

I have aquarium salt already but should I just get the Jungle conditioner in the jar instead?  I'll get the food by Jungle asap. 

I'll look up the gill flukes as I'm not sure what that is and when I get these products I can find out if they treat the feeder tanks or not.  Honestly by the set up I think all the tanks are treated together, I know one of the lfs works this way for sure but the one I got my feeders at I'm not sure.  They do have the feeders in the same line up with all the other goldies and I'm pretty sure that line is all on the same water system together.  These 2 stores are locally owned.
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Hanna
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2011, 04:26:16 PM »

Hi Bel,
follow Mindes advice in treating your fish and let Aimee help you with cycling the tank.

I am the one who uses Super Chlor, but it is a water conditioner, NOT beneficial bacteria... lol... as the name sais... Chlor >>>> removing Chlorine, Chloramine, etc.
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Nossie
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2011, 04:36:47 PM »

Just in case you didn't know, I thought I'd point out a few things about feeder fish. They are usually all culls from breeders, meaning that they may not grow particularly big or strong in the first place. They're also always kept in really bad conditions at the shops, and they're being treated bad during shipping, so they are full of parasites, bacteria or fungus. Which is why we ALL quarantine our new fish, especially if they're feeders. Now, quarantining doesn't mean treating with the heaviest meds you've got, but treat whatever symptoms they show, and if they don't show symptoms, treat with salt at least so that you can be sure you kill off any possible parasites the fish may be carrying.

In other words, some of those fish may never grow normally, and some of them may not survive the cycling of your tank. But if you don't want to keep them anyway, I'll assume that it's not a big problem, and you'll just give away whichever fish that survive.
But another risk with cycling the tank with feeders is that you may have gotten a lot of unwanted pathogens in there by now. If the tank contains parasites or bacteria, the new fish may also end up getting sick Undecided Which is why one should really, really avoid cycling tanks with feeders. I don't want you to get all terrified and start over after scrubbing the tank 10 times with bleach and discarding all the decoration items, but you should keep in mind that the risk is there.
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2011, 04:48:42 PM »

Yeah I am getting a bit freaked out honestly!  I am trying to make sure the conditions of the tank don't kill the small fish and also didn't know they could carry all these parasites.   Shocked

Makes me want to really lay a throat lashing on that store owner that gave me all this BAD advise. 

So if I can get these guys all treated for anything they may be carrying and hope to goodness most of them make it till March for their new home will I be safe to put fish in the tank after they are quarantined?  Should I retreat the empty 75g as well once the little guys go to the pond?

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Mindemae
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2011, 05:07:46 PM »

First find out if the lfs does treat and what it treats with and for.
Then treat if you have to.
Treating the whole 75 gallon tank should take care of parasites and bacteria in the tank.
Most parasites and bacteria die quickly without a host.
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2011, 05:58:58 PM »

Whew! That's a bit of a relief then.  I can surely leave it empty for a while when the new fish are in the qt.  and just add some fish food to keep it from recycling I suppose.  I will find out and get all the supplies but it may be Friday before I am able to get there.  There is nothing in this little town except a grocery store and family dollar for supplies.
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Mindemae
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2011, 07:22:29 PM »

Here is a picture of 3 feeders I purchased this spring,all from petsmart, all the same size, and all at the same time.
The litle guy on the left (Smidget), is stunted.  In fact I'm sure he would go down in the guiness book of records as the smallest goldfish! Wink
Anyway, feeders are not healthy to begin with, they are bred just to be feeders, always kept in overcrowded condtions and not fed the best diet.  It's very sad, but that is what Ipick for my ponds and I think by that I am giving a few a better life. Smiley
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Nossie
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2011, 03:37:15 AM »

I really can't see a difference between your feeders and our commons anyway Wink I don't think they are that flawed, but they usually would grow less than a correctly fed and kept goldfish.

About the large tank, you may want to raise the temperature there too if you take the fish out, this will speed up the life-cycle of the parasites and they'd die faster without their hosts.

You don't have to "feed" the tank once it's cycled by the way, putting fish food in the tank with no fish in it is a method used to cycle the tank in the first place. You'd quarantine the new fish for about a month, and that's not going to have your beneficial bacteria killed dead.

There are a few threads discussing different cycling methods, you may want to look out for them a little and see if you can find some good information Smiley
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aimeekat
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2011, 06:04:03 AM »

   If she doesnt feed the bacteria yes some will survive but not enough to handle the bio-load when she puts fish back in. Am I wrong guys? Everything i have read says to keep a tank cycled it needs a food source to thrive so to keep it cycled you have to leave a fish in or put a pinch of food to feed the good bacteria. So when you do add your bio-load of fish it wont spike.
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Mindemae
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2011, 06:15:36 AM »

I always leave one or two fish in a tank I want to keep cycled.
I agree, the bacteria need some type of food source.
With no fish in a tank to constantly provide ammonia to feed the bacteria, alot will just die off and reduce the bio-system. Smiley
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Hanna
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2011, 07:17:25 AM »

Agreed wit Aimee and Minde,  Smiley
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2011, 08:19:02 AM »

Yay! I got something right then. lol 

Yeah I just figured I wouldn't want it to do a mini-cycle or anything like I have read can happen since it would be empty for a month or so like you guys said.  I do already have a heater on that tank that's not on atm,  got a couple extra ones as well in different sizes, many things have just been given to me that family didn't want any longer and I had fish at the time so they figured I might could use extra supplies/tanks.   Grin

Minde those are some pretty little fishies!  Smiley  I see what you are saying about the size there.  I didn't know they can get stunted that early in life.  I thought it was from long periods of being kept in undersized tanks or overpopulated ones.  You can make a great point with that picture where people don't believe they can stunt their fish by keeping them in little bowls and such.
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Mindemae
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2011, 11:28:05 AM »

Actually, Bel...and this is a quite interesting debate about how goldfish are stunted.
I think it mostly has to do with genetics but environment does play a part in how fast and how big they get.
Goldfish release hormones in their water and they can tell how big their environment is.  I think they somehow can slow their growth to accomodate their surroundings this way. Smiley
I think some feeders, tho, like Smidget there, just genetically are going to not grow right.  Maybe something more not right with him than his growth or lack of it.  Anyway time will tell.
Usually the bigger fish eat the smaller ones I learned from raising my fry. Wink
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Hanna
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2011, 03:40:16 PM »

I also learned at the Aquaholic meetings that if you do frequent and large water changes they grow bigger again because the concentration of their hormones gets diluted and they think they live in a "huge" tank.
(like ours they are as big as my hand now in less than one year). Smiley
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Mindemae
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2011, 04:03:41 PM »

Yes, Hanna good point, I have heard that too.
I also recently read a study done with guppies, and fry that were force fed to grow quickly had a shorter life span than the ones that were not. Wink
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aimeekat
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2011, 07:15:11 PM »

I also recently learned from a breeder that if you want them to breed do very frequent larger water changes. It interferes with the hormonal signals that they put in water to say "hey guys too many of us no kids". With the large frequent changes they are tricked in thinking "WOOOHOOO lets procreate!" because they now think there is lots of room. Thats why you get more spawning behavior at night ( or very early morning) after a major water change, oh and blue moon lighting is said to help too (no joke).
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Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2011, 11:31:19 PM »

That's really interesting that the water changes affect how quickly they grow.  

You don't have to worry about them growing too quickly?  Like a plant that grows indoors too quickly and gets long and spindly and weak.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 12:03:44 PM by Summer Time » Logged
Hanna
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2011, 04:29:51 AM »

Woohoo Aimee, of course, so logical but it didn't cross my mind, how s.t.u.p.i.d. am I Huh
And soon I'll be getting this submersible blue moonlight... hooray off for larger more frequent water changes.
Want babies Grin
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Abbiesaurus
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2011, 07:22:05 AM »

Haha Hanna I really hope that your goldfish have babies Smiley
That would be so sweet <3
Have they shown any breeding behaviour lately?
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2011, 09:40:37 AM »

I actually read about that as well with the big water change to get them to drop eggs. 

I found this that seems simple enough if any of you want to try breeding your goldfish. 

"I usually warm my tanks by a few degrees and leave the lights on a bit longer. Look for the forecast and find a "storm" coming. 2-3 days before the storm comes, start changing water - about 50% each day - with water that is 2-4 degrees cooler than the water in the tank. Look at dawn - fish like to spawn at dawn. If you miss the first drop, you can usually catch the subsequent ones - they often drop for several days.

To much reading!  Grin 

I don't even intend on breeding but I thought it was interesting how it works with goldies.  There were more that told simple ways to get it to happen as well but this person has breed for many years and is experienced.  They usually only have the two they want to breed in a separate tank so you know who the Mommy and Daddy is.   Smiley
They put plastic plants or breeding grass in with them so the eggs don't all get eaten.  After the eggs have dropped and the male has done his part they remove the parents and put them back in their regular tank. 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 09:56:37 AM by Bel » Logged
Summer Time
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2011, 12:01:44 PM »

I was thinking I'd like to breed mine, but will wait until I'm more prepared.  Thanks for spelling it out for me.  Not sure if I really will, but if it happens naturally, don't know what I'd do with all the babies.  Probably have tanks all over the house, and build a pond out back  Smiley Smiley
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Nossie
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2011, 12:11:42 PM »

Goldfish will also end up bigger or smaller depending on what kind, and how much food they're being fed as fry Smiley
There are always a few in the bunch who grab the most food and will grow larger, while some stay pretty small because they're not getting that much. And they'll stay that way all their lives, but there's nothing wrong with that as long as the fish is healthy Smiley
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2011, 03:52:10 PM »

They usually only end up with a smaller amount that actually make it.  It sounds a bit heart breaking honestly.  Even with the exact right water conditions and care there are still a great many that will parish.  Some had hundreds of fry to hatch to end up with maybe 25 to make it.  I know some do culling because of deformities or breeding for an exact body shape and such but I would think it would be hard to just kill the deformed fry.  They also have major lives lost during certain time intervals, like day 4 and 5 then again at so many weeks old.  Seems like a lot of work to go through and heartache with losing so many. 

I'll stick to spoiling what I have and if I did end up with babies I would try my best to make sure they made it.   Wink
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Nossie
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2011, 04:54:16 AM »

Most (not obviously deformed) fry that is culled is sold to pet shops Smiley Some of my fancies have a single anal fin, for example, or curly tails Smiley While that's not very desirable features for breeders or show fish Smiley
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Hanna
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2011, 06:40:29 AM »

LOL, Abbie... see what happens I am really up to it for waterchanges every day if needed to get them to spawn.
Trouble is, the water out of the tap is the same p.e.e-warm as in the tank... Tongue because it is summer now.
Got the ceiling fans and the aircon running too (sometimes), keep the lids open and a bit less water ( about 2 cm )like usual so they wont finish up outside the tank as they like to do some dolphin flips.
Breeding behaviour, well sometimes I think they do, as the boys got their breeding stars and Hepsi is pretty round.
Their diet chages a lot, feed lots of different things.... waiting for the blue light now, hahaha
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2011, 09:19:15 AM »

You could try ice in a bucket maybe to add cooler water to the tank, think I read that somewhere too.  Like I said, to much reading! lol

Yes Nossie, I read that some would do that and take them to pet shops but I'm not sure how many breeders do this.  I think some do and some don't.  Maybe it just depends on how big of a heart they have.  Smiley 
Where I was reading about breeding, these different breeders didn't all say what they did with them, other than they culled them.  Someone had asked one what they do with them and he said he euthanized them.   Sad 
It was just kinda sad to read about but I did want to know how the whole breeding thing worked with fancies since they were sorta created by man to look like they do. 
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Bel
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2011, 09:31:41 AM »

Found this as well in case you want any more info. lol

(mod edit: Please remember not to copy and paste articles from other websites and sources.  You can post a direct link instead.)






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Nossie
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Re: Questions regarding slower growing fish
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2011, 10:30:08 AM »

Hanna: Extra portions of live foods like blood worms, black worms and shrimp would encourage the fish to spawn too! Smiley You know, it would imitate the weather of spring with extra bugs landing in their water Wink

Bel: I think most breeders SHOULD do that, because it's not only nicer to the babies, but they'd also gain some extra money Smiley
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