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Author Topic: Taming goldfish?  (Read 3789 times)
fantailer
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2011, 05:22:37 PM »

Goldiegirl: I agree! Cheesy

Nossie:My family usually has my best freind freind feed my fish Smiley. He is really reliable. Smiley
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Ron H
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2011, 07:43:20 PM »

I was wondering about that Goldie, I think my fish hear me coming as well, when I walk up the hallway normally and I get to their room, they are already waiting for me to arrive at the closest corner of the tank to the door, even at night... does anyone know how well fish see at night? sometimes I find them foraging around in the dark and wonder...
and how pedantic am I, we have been away for 7 days, so I measured out all my fishes meals in little pill cups (I kept from my many visits in the hospital) wrapped them in glad wrap and labelled what fish tanks they were for, then I had my neighbour feed them to my fish while I was away... at least there was no overfeeding issues...
Glad to hear you have a car to use Nossie, I read somewhere Finland puts you thru a lot driving courses to get your licence and it takes about 3 years if I remember rightly... probably why you Fins produce such great racing drivers... cheers all
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Nossie
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2011, 04:41:46 AM »

fantailer: That's great!! Smiley I don't have anyone around here that I know well enough to trust them with my fish >> The people I know have a dog, and feeding a dog is a lot different from fish... Wink Does your friend have fish of his own too? Smiley

Ron: As far as I know, goldfish don't see that well in the dark, they need to sleep sometime too, so if they'd see too clearly during nights, I think they'd get exhausted looking for food 24/7... Wink On a more serious note, I actually don't know exactly how that works.. .but considering that there are nocturnal fish as well as diurnal that must mean that they have differently developed eye sight... Smiley Some cat fish have the same "technology" in their eyes as cats Smiley

About the license, I got it in a month, but that's not the permanent license, next year I have to go for more advanced classes and after that I'll get it Wink So it's like 3 stages, and you choose yourself for how long you have the license before you do the more advanced stage (the 2nd stage is sort of the practice in between these two) it can take up to two years max until you go get it Cheesy
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fantailer
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2011, 05:53:42 AM »

He gets fish from the fair all the time. Smiley But he doesn't let his dad to waterchanges because he doesn't dechlorinate the water Sad.
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Nossie
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2011, 02:00:58 PM »

Nice! And... less nice >>
My mom isn't a big fan of dechlorinating the water either Wink But my family live in a place where there isn't any chlorine or anything in the water, it's pure and healthy for both fish and humies Wink I on the other have to use a load of money on water conditioners all the time living in the city >>
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fantailer
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2011, 03:39:46 PM »

They used to trust their dad with fish untill....... The accident! Sad
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Fishy Jeff
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2011, 07:12:48 PM »

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If I feed my fish with an automatic food dispenser while I'm working out of town, will it make them less receptive to me?  I have aquarium plants for them to nibble on if they get hungry.

I don't want to lose their cute excitement when they see me, I still want them to associate me with food... has anyone noticed if their fish lost interest in them when they started using an automatic fish feeder?  Thanks

I have the exact opposite interest as yourself. I want my pond fish to ignore me and go about their everyday business. What I find is that they check out everything, including the cats that come down for a drink.

My guess is that they won't forget you, if you don't forget them.

Fishy Jeff
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2011, 07:37:13 PM »

Us in the West get our permits when you're 15 and your licence when you're 16.
"Humies" lol Nossie  Cheesy We don't live in the city but we're on city water, and that stuff is nasty as heck. We have a large ammonia reading when the water first comes out of the sink, untreated. It smells like you're in a swimming pool whenever you take a bath in it because there's so much chlorine.  Tongue Gross, right? And I mean, we drink that stuff even when it kills our fish... Undecided

Ron I totally know what you mean about being super nervous about others feeding your fish...when I was at the hospital for 6 days for my back surgery I was on pins and needles worrying I would come back and find them all over-fed, floating from swimbladder disorder, and/or dead. They made it fortunately...my younger sister watches me constantly whenever I feed them or change their water...I think she'll end up getting a goldie one of these days... Smiley

Cool picture, Fishy Jeff. I wish my camera could focus like that...or maybe it's me, not the camera.  Cheesy
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Fishy Jeff
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2011, 08:26:52 PM »

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<snip>

Ron: As far as I know, goldfish don't see that well in the dark, they need to sleep sometime too, so if they'd see too clearly during nights, I think they'd get exhausted looking for food 24/7... Wink On a more serious note, I actually don't know exactly how that works.. .but considering that there are nocturnal fish as well as diurnal that must mean that they have differently developed eye sight... Smiley Some cat fish have the same "technology" in their eyes as cats Smiley

It seems to me that they swim much slower and deeper at night. Apparently they do something very much like sleeping.

Their vision is interesting:

animal-facts-trivia.blogspot.com/2008/09/goldfish-incredible-eyesight.html

    Goldfish Vision:

    Vision that is seen in the goldfish may not seem important to many people, but it is actually quite fascinating in that it is much more developed than most people would expect it to be for the size and apparent intelligence of the creature. Overall, goldfish have developed full-spectrum vision so that they will be able to see the micro-flashes of static electrical charge and bio-luminescence that appear when a creature hunting with sonar sends sound waves through waters rich in micro-fauna in order to search for its prey. This full-spectrum vision has also proved to be very effective in sensing many and various tell-tale signs that come from the bow-wave that a rapidly moving predator makes as it cuts through the water.

    Goldfish, in particular, have been widely used as a model system for the study of color vision. The goldfish retina contains rods and four cone types in juveniles, three cone types in adults..


 
  It seems to me that they are like us and lose color vision when it gets darker. And since they have more cones that means less rods and poorer night vision than B&W only sight. I would think that they have no problem recognizing each other, unless they are all orange!

  Fishy Jeff
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Summer Time
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2011, 08:31:29 PM »

Fishy Jeff - so CUTE, that picture!  That's good advice, they haven't forgotten me yet, and I miss them the whole the time I'm gone, and my cat.  You make a good point.  I think they'd curl up on my bed too if they could... They'd probably be on our laps all the time, just like most pets.   Smiley

Ron, I bet your footsteps wake them up in the dark, similar effect to turning on a light.  I don't think they see well in the dark either, because they see their food better with the light on.

For the medicine I needed a couple weeks ago, I had my brother drive up 3 days in a row to put the medicine in, for their fin/tail rot.  I had put the correct amount in 3 little baggies for him.  Brothers are nice sometimes, it's a long drive for him.  Grin
 
I don't trust my neighbors to remember, and I had one put in medicine for me just two times, maracide which is that methaline blue, really strong stuff, and she spilled some drops around the tank, staining the cabinet and towel blue, etc.  I don't know how much really went into the tank.  And I had to re-do the whole treatment a week later.  So I only trust my brother at the moment.

Sometimes I can smell the chlorine in my tap water too, but the village water reports always say it's .3 ppm.  They must have bad days where they need to add more.  My water always tests perfect out of the tap, except I don't test for chlorine or metals, but nitrates, ammonia and that are all 0.  I drank bottled water for years, but now drink the tap water because if you read up on it, it's safer, even tho it might not taste as good. Wink
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fshguyktown
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2011, 08:48:56 PM »

My goodies seem to show more personality and comfortableness around me almost ever few days. Smiley I am I'm very particular about my animals and don't like to leave them long. A week is about Max for me to Nossie. :-)
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Fishy Jeff
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2011, 10:12:29 PM »

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<snip>

Cool picture, Fishy Jeff. I wish my camera could focus like that...or maybe it's me, not the camera.  Cheesy

It's a pocket lumix and it isn't focused where I wanted it. With such a camera you just take a lot of pics until you get something that you want that has all the elements you want. It's a compromise as fish require high speed and the water is best at a slower exposure.

I've just started to skim the digital tons of pics and video I have  so far:
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Nossie
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2011, 03:37:40 AM »

Love the pictures! It's a very interesting thing you're doing with that pond Wink
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fantailer
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2011, 05:22:20 AM »

Wow a golden flower! Smiley
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Ron H
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2011, 06:36:07 AM »

cheers for the eyesight info Nossie and Fishy Jeff, very interesting stuff... and Summer Time Im glad that I am not the only one who measures out things for the fish while were away... and it could be my steps waking them up, I will have to sneak up on them and see whats going on...
I think 7 days is about my limit for being away from the gang (fish and ducks), my neighbour gets a list of instructions but I still seem to stick little post its everywhere as well...
and how freaky is cats and catfish having the same sort of eyesight gear...
also nice waterlilly pic Fishy Jeff, is that a double type flower? it seems to have more petals than mine... cheers
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Fishy Jeff
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2011, 09:45:02 AM »

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<snip>
also nice waterlilly pic Fishy Jeff, is that a double type flower? it seems to have more petals than mine... cheers

I'll see if I can find out anything more about it. I bought a pond liner for $50 from a friend and got the hole for free. Well it was some work... A neighbor stopped by who has water gardens and he gave me the fish, the lily and the parrots feather. I had no idea, that like roses, they came in single and double.

I'm attaching a pic with it fully open, so maybe you can tell...
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2011, 10:33:20 AM »

Oooooh pretty flowers! 8D Those lilies are simply astounding, I bet they look phenominal from a distance when you look at the pond as a whole. I didn't quite catch...did you dig the hole for the pond yourself?  Huh
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Fishy Jeff
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2011, 12:39:44 PM »

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Oooooh pretty flowers! 8D Those lilies are simply astounding, I bet they look phenominal from a distance when you look at the pond as a whole. I didn't quite catch...did you dig the hole for the pond yourself?  Huh

I'm marginal  for water lilies with the amount of sun I get. The way they work is that in season they send up a flower that opens and closes every day for 3 to 5 days. Then a new flower will follow as will new leaves. You don't always have flowers. I only have room for one.

 I've attached a pic I just took of the pond now, as it is full. I don't think I'll get another flower.

In the second pic are from left to right: Red Dot, Little Orange and Whitey.

The pond is not deep, just under 2' max (I'm in Atlanta). It has a lot of shallows, that are now at 6" to 8". The way this worked is that I dug this out to fit the space. The earth is mounded up around the edges, which helps isolate the pond and meant I didn't have to dig down another 6" or so as about a foot is above grade. It's a 12' x 18' EPDM liner folded to fit. There is a lot of terrain variance for the small size. The bricks came from an apartment complex that is being torn down and the rocks are local finds.

The pond looks different throughout the day and how you look at it. It's a matter of lighting and composition.  About 11AM the sun throws a wicked rainbow, and at night I have the reflections of the lights. I'm working on lighting just for the fountain scavenged from LED flashlights.

  A decent photographer can always find a good shot.

  Fishy Jeff
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 05:31:27 PM by Fishy Jeff » Logged
Fishy Jeff
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2011, 02:32:31 PM »

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Well I am starting to see different personalitys in each of them... which I would like to say is very neat... I will try if nothing else I can hand feed them. Smiley hopefully

I've been reading some on the intelligence of fish. As it turns out fish are smarter than we think and carp, the type of fish a goldfish is, is the smartest of fresh water fishes.

So, if you can come up with something your goldfish like, it seems likely they will remember it. Likewise they will remember a bad experience also. Fish that have had a shoalmate  attacked will remember that and avoid either the location or the lure for months, if not longer.

timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1154278.ece

The biologists, Calum Brown, Keven Laland and Jens Krause, write in the journal Fish and Fisheries: “Gone (or at least obsolete) is the image of fish as drudging and dimwitted pea-brains . . . Now, fish are regarded as steeped in social intelligence, pursuing Machiavellian strategies of manipulation, punishment and reconciliation, exhibiting stable cultural traditions, and co-operating to inspect predators and catch food.”

Recent research has shown that fish recognise individual “shoal mates” and monitor the social prestige of others within their shoals. Fish have been found using tools, building complex nests and bowers, and exhibiting impressive long-term memories.


mankatofreepress.com/columnistjcross/x1048526354/Carp-at-the-top-of-the-fish-intelligence-scale

they measured how quickly fish learned a simple thing like developing an aversion to lures and baits they had previously been caught on.

As I recall, their results suggested that that the lowly carp was the most intelligent of freshwater fish species. The trout and walleye fell someplace in the middle of the class, followed then by bass and pike, with panfish being the dunces.

Good luck with out witting your goldfish!

  Fishy Jeff
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fantailer
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2011, 03:27:40 PM »

I wonder if bettas and pleco are that smart Huh?
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Fishy Jeff
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #50 on: September 07, 2011, 04:26:39 PM »

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I wonder if bettas and pleco are that smart Huh?

Smarter than Klaus?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Heissler

I doubt it!

Fishy Jeff
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Fishy Jeff
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2011, 10:50:38 PM »

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Well I am starting to see different personalitys in each of them... which I would like to say is very neat... I will try if nothing else I can hand feed them. Smiley hopefully

I've been reading some on the intelligence of fish. As it turns out fish are smarter than we think and carp, the type of fish a goldfish is, is the smartest of fresh water fishes.
<snip>

So, I've been reading up on carp fishing. It turns out that carp are hard to catch.

carp-fishing-tactics.com/catching-carp-margins.html

As long as you’re quiet when setting up and fishing you can take fish from the margins in most lakes. Carp have great hearing and will be able to pick up vibrations from the surrounding bank, thus you do need to be as quiet as possible. Banging in pegs with a hammer will only cause them to move on. During your stay try to remain hidden as much as possible, or keep low when you approach the water. Try to always wear dark green or brown clothing or better still use camouflage clothing. I usually set the bivvy up a little away from the waters edge or try to get hidden behind a tree. I also try to be light on my feet and walk around in my bivvy slippers as much as I can.

There is another article saying they can see from 15'  away. That they are line and weight shy and you should use the lightest line.

So, it seems that goldfish, by extension of being related, have superb color vision, very good hearing and long memories.

Wild fish, like carp, have to be shy and extremely cautious. But the domesticated Goldfish trusts humans. It is probably just as clever and perceptive as it's wild cousin. I suspect because it doesn't have the same fear of predation, that goldfish can more interestingly use their intelligence.

  Fishy Jeff
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fantailer
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2011, 05:36:51 AM »

Wow carp are complicated!
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Fishy Jeff
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2011, 07:34:14 AM »

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Wow carp are complicated!

I believe so.  Carp were domesticated early, the Romans had extensive aquaculture. The choice is often the adaptability of the animal, that is the same reason that pigs (who are smart) are among the first of the domesticated animals.

Carp naturally live in groups in shallow waters where they feed. That makes them more susceptible to predation and they developed very good sight and hearing to protect themselves. They group together to protect themselves. When one senses something and splits, the rest generally go with him. Because of this mutual need they have developed a social intelligence. Fish, in general, have higher social intelligence than other species.

So from Chinese aquaculture ponds of Prussian Carp were noticed genetic color mutations. These are the fish that are our goldfish. The goldfish is fatter than it's wild cousins also. It fits a different niche.

Goldfish are an entirely domesticated animal that has the intelligence, social and otherwise, of it's wild cousin.

Now, check out this from Wikipedia: Domestication

Modifiable social hierarchy — Social creatures that recognize a hierarchy of dominance can be raised to recognize a human as the pack leader.

Fishy Jeff

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Goldiegirl
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2011, 10:28:30 AM »

They sound very similar to dogs in that respect...canines are said to easily distinguish what human of the family is the "dominant" leader. Interesting research you're presenting, Fishy Jeff. Thank you for your information.  Smiley

Very nice pond you have there.  Wink
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fantailer
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2011, 03:22:03 PM »

Wow it seems common carp was domesticated a long time ago. Smiley But after amny other creatures.
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Nossie
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2011, 03:24:21 PM »

Yes, interesting indeed! It's always nice to get some new info, karma to that! Smiley
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Ron H
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2011, 01:22:29 AM »

great info Fishy Jeff, cheers for that, and my water lillies will come into flower soon, so I will get a pic and compare... we brought a pink one last year as well, and we are hoping to see that flower for the first time...
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Nossie
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2011, 02:56:51 AM »

How nice, Ron! Smiley Since it's so cold here all the time, our water lillies don't grow that big... you can just basically see a little white spot on a leaf... xD I'd love to see photos Smiley
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Fishy Jeff
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Re: Taming goldfish?
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2011, 07:11:15 AM »

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They sound very similar to dogs in that respect...canines are said to easily distinguish what human of the family is the "dominant" leader. Interesting research you're presenting, Fishy Jeff. Thank you for your information.  Smiley

Very nice pond you have there.  Wink

Thanks, I am very happy with the pond. As you can see, goldfish are just part of the attraction!

This concept of social intelligence is relatively new to me. You are correct about dogs. They are pack animals and can pick up subtle cues that people miss. They are very much tuned into what is going and who is in charge, They have higher basic social skills than people.

What I have seen with dogs is that their owners often don't assert themselves as the leader. This leads to the dog doing pretty much what it wants and the owner complaining that the dog doesn't understand them. Well it does, it's the human that has failed in the relationship. When you train a dog there are certain "tricks" that the dog picks up on instantly. You can only catch them out once, if you do the trick correctly. That is because dogs pay attention to the members of their pack.

  A fish has different social needs, and protection is very basic.

  What has sort of brought me to such an understanding is that I have cats, enough cats that I can see that they have complex social interactions. And this for animals that are primarily individualist. This social awareness is a basic wired in part of the brain.

  Goldfish are more or less always aware of what their shoal mates are up to. They eat, digest their food (relatively motionless deeper in the pond with members facing different directions), and play as a group. As far as the way they behave towards their "owners" and feeders, it seems very much like dogs and cats and cows for that matter. They learn what it takes to get your attention, or to ask for it, as they see the reward in doing so. And there is always one more on top of the goings on, and one more lost. Variety is basic to nature. Even among sheep there are leaders.

  Fishy Jeff
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 07:13:26 AM by Fishy Jeff » Logged
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