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Author Topic: Thank god I have found this forum!  (Read 3566 times)
Euro1989
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Thank god I have found this forum!
« on: August 28, 2011, 06:17:00 PM »

Hi there guys! So happy to have found this forum and its lovely to be here, but I have two seemingly ill fish so straight down to business if that's ok, want my Sharky and Flounder to be healthy!

Mine and my partners fish were bought one week ago (just simple Gold Fish at 99p each (although they are worth more then money to us now!) and they have been fine until yesterday when they suddenly are no longer swimming around but hiding in the sunken ship or the plants. The tank came with a filter (internal), stones (thoroughly cleaned) and a fake plant (which has now gone and a real as taken its place). Since then we have added a 'sunken ship' and more stones (again have been cleaned). But they are just no longer active unless we go an sit with them (last night we stayed up most of the night talking to them as we were worried and they only seemed happy with us with them).

Now from reading this forum I do think already it maybe down to poor water quality, although this has never been an issue for me and my goldfish before (most of my goldfish have lived very long lives). And lets get on with the details-

1. How big is your tank:  17 litres circular.

2. For how long has the tank been set up: 1 Week

3. How many fish: 2 Sharky and Flounder

4. What kinf of fish: Just basic goldfish I was told (and what I asked for)

5. What are the water parameters:    Ammonia.........ppm
                                                            Nitrite..............ppm
                                                            Nitrate.............ppm
                                                            pH..........................
                                                            Temp...............degrees Celsius / Fahrenheit

Awful I know but I have never done anything like this before in 20 years it has never been an issue for my fishy's! First thing tomorrow I am doing this and getting some water products to help from my local pets at home, can someone advise what I should buy?

6. How often do you perform water changes: Once since the tank and the girls were bought a week ago as we have added stones, real plant and a sunken ship. All of these have been thoroughly cleaned as advised in my goldfish book.

7. How big are your waterchanges:      100% due to addage of stones

8. What kind of waterconditioner are you using: Help with this!

9. Do you add beneficial bacteria: No

10. Symptoms your fish is showing: Lying at bottom of tank not swimming unless we go and sit with them.

11. Since when does your fish show these symptoms:   Upto 48 hours ago

12. How is the normal behaviour of your fish: Swimming like there is no tomorrow!

13. How do the other fish behave: Both the same!

14. Post pics of the sick fish: Attached

15. Do you have a filter on your tank, what kind, how big (gallons per hour)- Fish R Fun 200L/hr Internal Filter they have a website but forum wont let me post it (We also have their fish tank, the large plastic circular one the bigger version)

16. Do you provide extra aeration with an air pump and air stone/diffuser of some kind.  No (usually I use a plant to cover this, should I add something else?)

Please help with whatever we can do to help these two beautiful fish, we are so worried and really want them to have a happy life like our other pets! I am guessing its water quality but what I don't get it why now after so many years of them being fine. If so what should I buy to sort this?

Thanks in advance guys!

Alex

EDIT:

Also every so often the fish may go crazy and act like they are having a fit like a repetitive motion with their fins back and forth then they go back to the bottom of the tank!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 06:22:13 PM by Euro1989 » Logged
nabi
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2011, 07:12:21 PM »

There could be many things wrong with them, but the most likely cause is  ammonia poisoning . Ammonia, which is  excreted by the goldfish through natural biological processes,  is very toxic and can damage a fish's gills and internal organs.  It 's very important that you do daily water testing during the first few weeks after establishing a new aquarium in order to monitor ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH levels in the water. If you skip the water testing part, the most likely result is what you are seeing now. Water that is perfectly clear without any smell can have dangerous levels of ammonia , and you wouldn't know this just by looking at the water. You can get your water tested for free at most pet shops if you bring a sample of the water to them or you can buy a water test kit. I recommend the AP freshwater master test kit , since it's cheaper than buying smaller test kits over the long run.

[image]


Although you mentioned you have kept fish in the past before, it doesn't seem you are familiar with cycling an aquarium. It can take anywhere from a 4-6 weeks to cycle an aquarium so that it's safe for any type of fish.  If you attempt to place a live fish in an new aquarium, there is no beneficial bacteria to help convert ammonia to a lesser toxic form called nitrate.  I recommend you use google search for terms like 'cycling an aquarium' and read up on those articles. It's also very difficult to cycle a small 17 liter aquarium , because all the water parameters will bounce up and down like a yoyo.

For now do a 60 percent water change daily (twice a day is better) and make sure the new water is about  the same temperature as the water that is in the 17 liter tank. Use a water conditioner (dechlorinator) for the new water to remove any chlorine or chloramine. You can find water conditioner in the fish section of the pet shop.

Right now , you will probably have a very hard time maintaining safe water conditions for your 2 fish in such a small tank, so i recommend that you consider upgrading something larger. 
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Euro1989
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2011, 07:41:31 PM »

Ohhh crikey, I haven't gone about this well at all.

Tank size wise I can not afford a bigger one at the moment but I have just found one on free cycle which I am applying to collect tomorrow. I will test the water and buy some water conditioner first thing in the morning. I have found the testing kit online so I know my local store stocks it already. I feel so bad for the fish now, the books I bought never mentioned some of what you have said, seems I needed to do more re-search!

Thanks for the tips so far, I will bring an update when I have one.

Worried is an understatement  Sad
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2011, 08:21:30 PM »

Nabi is right, I believe. With too many fish in such a small space, they are poisoning themselves with their own waste. One thing I might add is that water that hasn't been treated (using waterconditioner...there are many different kinds, but Prime or Amquel is the best by far) is DEADLY TO FISH as chlorine is causing your fish to be suffering. Note the clamped fins in the photos...a sign that something is deffinately amiss. Now the fit you mentioned..the fish "spazing out"...that means that there is an irritant of some kind in the water, most likely either ammonia or chlorine from untreated, uncycled, overcrowded water. I'm sorry things aren't going well for you...one thing I would suggest in the future (when you get a bigger tank) is never to do 100% water changes ever. That stresses out the fish because all your benefitial bacteria has just been demolished and causes water parameters to spike and fall. Nabi already mentioned about the cycling process, but you can read through some of the past articles on this forum and that may help you out a bit. I noticed in the photos you have a lid on and don't have an airstone...that is a disasterous combination as well, because goldfish need a lot of oxygen, espetially when you have two of them in there. It sounds like you are going to try to get the water conditioner and a larger tank, so that is very good. Hope things turn around for you soon.  Undecided

This link might help to give you some tips when you set up your new tank.  Smiley

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Nossie
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 04:41:01 AM »

No wonder you haven't had any water quality problems before if you never tested the water Wink You can't see when it's toxic to the fish. You got the help you needed already though, so I wish you best of luck Smiley Try getting a bigger tank asap! 20 gallons per goldfish.
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Euro1989
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2011, 05:36:29 AM »

OK I am leaving now to buy a new tank, just gonna have to spend the money as no one on free cycle has got back to me and I am really worried, so how should I set the new tank up firstly, should I put 50% fresh water and 50% from the tank already over. I was going to add the water conditioner that I am going to get and begin testing the water and also changing 60% of the water daily in the new tank.

If I do all this do we think my fishys will have a chance.
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Euro1989
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 10:33:58 AM »

OK guys update!

So new tank, got the biggest I could afford, got a tester kit, got Nutrafin Cycle (gets the process of a natutal environment going a lot quicker, bioactive tap safe, and additional ammonia remover to use over the coming days.

Now am going by the fish in the tank aqua cycle routine as otherwise they will have no were to go. So I am now going to be doing a 30% water change daily adding to the new water the tap safe and the Nutrafin Cycle. I will also be doing daily ammonia tests, now should this be done before or after the water change?

Hopefully in a few weeks I will notice a difference. Although the Nutrafin Cycle is meant to get the tank in a slightly stable condition within 48 hours so that is much better news.

I got a lot of help at my local Pets at Home! They were great, never going back to the place I got my fish, they should never have sold the fish to me on the same day as the tank! Awful, but I know now, hopefully the steps I am taking now will make sure Sharky and Flounder have a good long life!

Keep your fingers crossed guys for me!

Will update when I have one!
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 11:46:38 AM »

Great to hear!  Cheesy Keep us posted.
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sparkly-puffball
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 04:51:40 PM »

Even though you said you could only afford a 17 liter, at my local Petco they are currently selling $1 per gallon (10, 20 long, 20 tall, 20, 40 breeder, 55) So you should be able to afford a 20+ gallon tank, and you would have to get a new filter. You might have to call your local Petco to find out, because that's what I had to do.
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Euro1989
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 02:58:48 PM »

I am UK based and no were could I find a tank for that price.

Ok very very bad news.

Sharky and Flounder passed away within a few hours of each other today. Awful day all round knowing it was coming.

I feel so bad that I did not do what the fish needed me to do originally, I also am so annoyed that the fish shop sold me everything on the same day without any consideration for what may happen. After the stories I have heard though I will not be going back to that place.

At least now I have the information, the correct tools and a big tank for anything new I may get, but that will not be for a while now.

Sharky and Flounder  Cry

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fantailer
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 04:10:52 PM »

Oh no!  Cry
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 06:59:16 PM »

I'm sorry for your loss. It is upsetting to hear that the fish store workers didn't supply you with the information you needed.

Don't feel alone...most of us have lost fish at one time or another during the beginning years of our fish keeping experience, and that's how we've had to learn what to do and what not to do. Even the experts admit to that.

RIP Sharkey and Flounder.  Sad Sad
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Ron H
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2011, 07:26:27 AM »

I have been following this thread and I am sorry for your loss, you seem to be very genuine in your concern for your fish, I also feel a little sick about it all... at the moment I wish I was in the UK, I would be making merry **** for that pet store, I would very much like to get a little payback for your fish... anyway enough of my ranting, last thing, try not to kick yourself too much, you were given bad advice and most of us here have been there at one time or another... cheers > Ron
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2011, 11:36:45 AM »

You get so attatched to them in such a short ammount of time. It's heartbreaking to see them pass away so soon... Cry

Really, the pet stores need to clue in and do a bit of research.  Angry They could print out accurate pamplets or something that go along with the newly-purchased fish. Fliars that mention something about the size of the tank and stocking requirements, water testing, and where to get help when you have questions.
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sparkly-puffball
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2011, 09:37:53 PM »

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I am UK based and no were could I find a tank for that price.

Ok very very bad news.

Sharky and Flounder passed away within a few hours of each other today. Awful day all round knowing it was coming.

I feel so bad that I did not do what the fish needed me to do originally, I also am so annoyed that the fish shop sold me everything on the same day without any consideration for what may happen. After the stories I have heard though I will not be going back to that place.

At least now I have the information, the correct tools and a big tank for anything new I may get, but that will not be for a while now.

Sharky and Flounder  Cry


\

Oh sorry, I'm in the US.
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Nossie
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2011, 03:13:58 AM »

Of course that had to happen... man, nothing ever goes right sometimes :/ But really, this isn't your fault as much as the pet store workers' for giving you bad and inaccurate advice. Maybe from now on you realize that it's better in the end to learn as much as you can on your own? Smiley

Anyway, how big is your new tank? I didn't see that info anywhere?
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Ron H
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2011, 10:07:35 PM »

ditto Goldie, ditto Nossie, what good people you are, I dont know how you continually deal with these heartbreaking stories... I feel sick about it sometimes, then I get mad, but that doesn't help much either... cheers all
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Nossie
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2011, 03:29:18 AM »

Karma for you, Ron Smiley
It's the same for me usually... :/ Going through a pretty rough time with everything right now, and then one of my very first babies went and passed away on me Cry
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2011, 10:54:32 AM »

Cheers, Ron, it is hard to see so many suffering fish all across the globe...sometimes you don't have to look any further than the chain store next door to find creatures being unintentionally mistreated. Sometimes getting mad does help though, because then you have the fuel to try to make a change.  Wink It shows you are a caring person when things like this bothers you...so many are just indifferent to it.  Sad
 
Nossie, I'm sorry to hear you are going through a tough time. And it makes things just that much harder when the pets you love pass away...especially the ones you've had for such a long time. I really hope everything turns around for you, and that you find peace amidst all your trials.  Smiley
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Nossie
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2011, 01:55:46 PM »

Aww, thank you Goldie! Smiley *hug*
Yeah, I do hope the rest of the fish will be okay at least! Tomorrow is a huge water change day! Grin
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2011, 10:30:23 AM »

Right back atcha, Nossie *Cyber hug*  Grin

Ooh yay! I love those!  Wink Call me crazy, but I think it's fun cleaning the tank for a whole day.  Cheesy I hope the rest of your fish will do just fine.
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Nossie
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2011, 12:40:16 PM »

Yeah! It usually feels a bit like "argh, again?" before you start, but once you start vacuuming it's suddenly so much fun peeking at the fish Wink It makes me feel like I have a pond when I look at mine from up :'D *dreaming*
It's pretty wide and long, so it makes for an interesting top view Smiley
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2011, 04:56:38 PM »

I totally agree! They can be pretty high-maintenance but in the end you end up thinking "This is SO worth it!" I get endless hours of fascination just by watching them swim so gracefully around and interact with each other. That sounds like a cool setup you have, I bet it does seem like a pond from above! I love looking at mine from above when I turn off all the equipment for a cleaning. Usually all the ripples and bubbles make it a bit hard to see, but when it's all off you can just gaze in there forever... Cheesy *sigh*
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Ron H
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2011, 08:45:43 PM »

cheers Nossie and Goldie, thank you for your kind words... and I thought I was going mad by enjoying water changes and cleaning, and I love to watch the fish from above as well when everything is off, it's also a good reason to have a good look at everone and everything in your tank...
and your so right Goldiegirl, I sometimes do get fuelled by madness and it is at these times I have no probs taking on a challenge or doing my best...
Sorry to hear that things are not going well at the moment Nossie, you do such good educational work here, (as well as Goldiegirl and the other members) you both deserve to have things better.. I also speak from experience in relation to the issues you deal with, I was a trained contact for animal euthanasia in our wildlife group, you would think after ten years of it that you would get de-sensitised to it, but I just got more sensitive to it (Sharon says its my cancerian nature) anyway I had to eventually give it away, even though I knew what I was doing was the best for the birds and animals, it became too much to deal with and sometimes I just wanted to throttle people... at least online there is some distance between everyone, but when you have people who have clearly done wrong by an animal and there standing in front of you, it takes a lot of control to restrain yourself from saying what you really think... in the end I thought it was always better to educate them rather than chastise them... all the best of luck and fortune to both of you... regards > Ron
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Nossie
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2011, 04:52:50 AM »

Goldiegirl: Hehe, fish soup c':

Ron: Wow, that really sounds like a heavy burden... :/ I think I'd honestly snap if someone came to me with a dying pet and I could notice that it's obviously their bad care that caused the suffering. It's good that you knew your limits and stopped!
It's not as simple as getting immune to getting affected by that kind of thing, even if I've seen so many fish die everywhere in my days (elementary school tank was a nightmare, I was the only one who dared to take out the fish, once I was sick and gone for a week, and when I came back there were usually 2-3 half-rotten fish to be collected... :/), and I still get very sad everytime one dies :'c
It's just terrible how empty those bodies look when they die and you remember just how they were when they were still all healthy... :/
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fantailer
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2011, 06:09:33 AM »

Same thing with our school's elementary tank Sad! It was a 2 gallon with 30 goldfish Sad. The teacher would feed them to the turtles when the were alive or dead Cry.
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Goldiegirl
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2011, 11:51:28 AM »

Wow, Ron, that sounds really, really hard! I can imagine how tough it would be to have people come to you with animals that just can't be helped...you must have felt so angry, I can imagine. My whole life I'd always wanted to be a veternarian, but I realized myself it takes a special person to be able to see the cruelty humans inflict on helpless animals, sometimes on purpose. A local vet told me that 80% of the animals that are brought to his clinic have been abused/neglected. I couldn't stand that. I don't think I'd be mad as much as I would be depressed and ill at the thought of such destruction.  Undecided  I think humans are supposed to be caretakers and responsible stewards of the animals on this planet...not the opposite.

Ack Nossie that's terrible!! O.O I know what you mean about seeing a dead fish...it's as though their little soul's flown away.
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Nossie
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2011, 02:06:33 PM »

I agree with that, Goldie! D:
By the way, terrible story ahead... mom's dog lately got an infected disc in his back, he couldn't eat, he couldn't walk, he couldn't anything, he was in so much pain he was just shivering and whimpering :/ Mom called the vet on call that weekend and the BITCH was all "No, you have to go to x-district instead, I can't/won't do anything". By all means, this person is the one on call in our district, and so she should treat the animals that need help at the time, OBVIOUSLY. Later dad said that our vets have no connection to those in the x-district, and so... that hag was lying just so she wouldn't have to work... :/ (The dog recovered though, he survived the weekend and got the proper meds Smiley)
She had done something similar to one of the sheep farmers around, claiming that they'd have to pay a few extra 100 to get the sheep treated, so with that, since it wouldn't be economical, they chose to put it down instead. Again soon after we heard that a vet isn't allowed to take extra payment for driving out to treat the animals... :/ Makes me sick how she's lying just so she doesn't have to lift her fat ass and help an animal in pain...
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fantailer
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2011, 03:44:46 PM »

..... Angry
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 05:24:52 AM by fantailer » Logged
Goldiegirl
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Re: Thank god I have found this forum!
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2011, 07:28:13 PM »

When I hear stuff like that it makes me cry.  Cry

I know how it feels to have terrible pain in your back, so I can sympathize with that poor dog. I remember when I was in the hospital literally screaming because I was in so much pain, but I was allergic to the medications so I had to tough it out...

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